****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

Melanie Deziel 0:00

Hi, I'm Melanie Deziel and you're listening to A Shark's Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)

Kenneth Kinney 0:20

Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth Kinney, but friends call me Shark. I'm a keynote speaker, a strategist, a shark diver, host of this show, and your Chief Shark Officer.

Kenneth Kinney 0:33

Your brand is on trial. Hope you knew that. Most people don't believe the claims brands make why should they trust is and should be earned. So why on earth should they believe anything you say behind that logo? Think about all the claims we make hyperbole and all that what are you trying to prove to customers to help them believe something about you? If you want to earn a customer's trust, then exactly how do you prove it?

Kenneth Kinney 0:59

And excited to welcome back all the way from Episode 190 Melanie Deziel, who is the the co-founder of the agency the Convoy, a keynote speaker, a former journalist and lifelong storyteller, and the author “Prove It: Exactly How Modern Marketers Earn Trust.”

Kenneth Kinney 1:14

And on this episode, we'll discuss proving it the cynical marketer, Bill Fries, CW McCall and all types of convoys, co authoring a book with Phil M Jones and how to say comparable and even Zapier, brands being on trial, trust as a differentiator, what is the world's strongest coffee?, the different types of claims we make: convenience comparability commitment, connection and competence, what Patagonia did, Kathy Reed and Melanie's mom's car, proving it internally and measuring it, campus newspapers, better airports, famous Javelin throwers, and a lot, lot more.

Kenneth Kinney 1:47

So let's tune into a leader of a convoy with a great big old shark rockin through the waters on this episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

[music]

Kenneth Kinney 2:00

Melanie, welcome back to A Shark’s Perspective. Go listen, Episode 190 to get fuller bio update with a quick story. But tell us a little bit about where you are where you've been in your career, please.

Melanie Deziel 2:11

Yeah, so I am a journalist turned marketer. I used to say recovering journalist and I do feel like journalism is a bit of an addiction in that way. But yeah, so I've always been like a storyteller, I've always been, you know, relentlessly curious and trying to learn new things. And I found that when I couldn't get a job in journalism, because the you know, the media industry was in you know, quite tumultuous at the time, found my way into the into marketing and have have not looked back. So it's been a wild ride. I did some time with big media brands, you know, and love cop Post New York Times time Incorporated, have done quite a few years as a consultant and figure out my own and just launched my second book called proven.

Kenneth Kinney 2:54

And you've also on a you dabble in the consulting world. So where did your agency name from the convoy.

Melanie Deziel 3:00

So the company is a startup that I created with my husband, really designed to help small businesses. So the idea behind the convoy was basically, you know, small businesses, independent family owned, whatever you want to call it, they generally don't get the same pricing and discounts is like big chain do because there's not as many of them. But when you actually look at the numbers, most businesses are smaller independently on businesses. So our idea with the convoy was to basically gather all those people up into a way and use that negotiating power to, you know, negotiate discounts for services products that are on their behalf.

Kenneth Kinney 3:37

So it wasn't based off of the famous Bill Fries / CW McCall song?

Melanie Deziel 3:42

It was not it was not it was also the timing was horrible. It was the freedom convoy was happening to Russian convoy. Like we're not that.

Kenneth Kinney 3:53

But do you know that they'll freeze was an advertising guy that did an ad campaign for a Bread Company. And then he turned that ad campaign into a song that became a number one country song, like 50 years ago, and he just died not that long ago. And I remember reading about it, but I thought it was pretty funny made me think of the convoy when I saw you at Content Marketing World. So anyway, congratulations on the new book, prove it exactly how modern marketers are in trust. What was the impetus for the book? And how did you open this Melanie Deziel, film Jones guy?

Melanie Deziel 4:25

The idea for the book came from, you know, my first book was contextual framework was all about how to come up with content ideas. And a lot of times they discovered the follow up question or like, the next step was people saying, well, not how do I choose what to start with? Like, I've got ideas. Now, that's not a problem, but like, where do I start? What should I prioritize? And my answer was always some version of like, whatever is most important for your business. Like what are you trying to prove to customers? What are you trying to help them believe about you? What are the biggest you know, Miss misbelief that you're like, overcoming right? But I realized I needed or I wanted some thing more actionable than that. But that felt like I needed to give a resource to actually help figure that out. So Phil Jones is actually a friend of mine. We've known each other for years, hitting back to, you know, NSA, New York City, the National Speakers Association. And I mean, obviously, the man knows how to sell books, right? So I asked him, if he would brainstorm with me, like, I've got this seed of an idea. I'm not totally sure where I'm going to take it. But like, you know, can I pick your brain? And so as the two of us were talking it out, we just realized there was such a synergy between my take on it from a marketing perspective and his take on it from a sales perspective of how do you align those sort of like key business claims that you're making, and creating content is proof to back it up to help earn that trust? And just over the course of brainstorming for an hour or two, it became clear like, Okay, this is now a fully fledged idea. And it's our idea, like, we've come up with this together. And so it just, I mean, it made sense. And it's always good to work with a friend that was like, Yeah, by all means, let's do it.

Kenneth Kinney 5:56

Well, writing a book is I'm learning is a slog, you've done it now twice, but what is writing? The second one? What is it like writing it with somebody else? I mean, just your synergy with Phil, but it's got to be different co authoring a book and sort of developing that synergy outside of the friendship?

Melanie Deziel 6:13

Yeah, so I mean, it's interesting in a couple ways. First of all, I don't know if I would have said this, if you asked me in the moment, but in retrospect, reading the second book was a lot easier and a lot less stressful than the first one because I knew I could do it. So purely from like a logistical standpoint, there was not that, like, what if I can't do this, like, I'm never gonna finish, like, I knew I could do it, even if you know, it was it was rough, the first go around, I knew it would get done. The other thing is that it was actually really exciting to have a co author because one of the challenges, at least that I found with writing a book is it can be super isolating, you know, you're sort of you're so in depth with this project, but you haven't released it to the world, yet. There's no one for you to share your excitement with, there's no one for you to sort of bounce ideas off of. So for me, it was awesome to be able to call him up when I'm working on one of my sections and be like, Hey, I'm, I'm running through this example. Like, does it make sense? How should I position you know, to have someone who is as deeply invested in the written product, as you are? Gives you, you know, assuming you get along with him, well, you know, someone to kind of bounce ideas off of, and grow with. The other thing is, yeah, like I said, we're we're friends, of course. But it's also, you know, he's incredibly talented. And so to be able to kind of be one another's editor to, you know, to kind of improve and give feedback to each other throughout the process. It was like, it created this sort of cycle of improvement where like, things just kept getting better, they kept getting sharper, because we were able to build on what the other was doing. So it was a really fun process. Yeah, it's

Kenneth Kinney 7:43

amazing. If you've ever worked with a Content Editor before having one that's a friend that can really challenge you. It makes it a much better process. Well, Melanie, I didn't like the book. I loved it. Easy to read, and very to the point, as a cynical marketer, this is catnip to me. But let's talk a little bit about the trial, you say that brands are on trial? Your Honor, elaborate, if you will, on that legal argument, please, where you think brands are on trial today?

Melanie Deziel 8:10

Yeah, so this was it was fun. I did sprinkle a little bit. I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but I sprinkled a little bit of sort of legalese throughout, because I think we can all kind of relate to some of those key themes based on watching, like court shows and things, right. So the idea of being on trial is, you know, essentially, consumers have shifted their mindset over the last few years. And they now default to distrust, they distrust things by default. And so in order to cross that barrier, in order to sort of, you know, prove that we're, you know, untrustworthy until proven trustworthy, essentially, versus, you know, innocent till proven guilty, we've got to provide the evidence, like, we're the ones the onus is on us to say, Okay, I know you don't trust anyone, here's why you should trust me, because they won't, if, you know, if not given the evidence. So it's really kind of a mindset shift and thinking about the marketing claims that you're making, and saying, Okay, well, I could just say that, but how can I prove it? How can I take it a step further and provide evidence of that, so that when I know this, this person is going to come at this with this trust, they're going to read this to the lens of distrust? They're gonna watch this video with distrust on their mind? How do we overcome that by providing enough evidence for them to feel comfortable trusting us? So it is, it is, I like to think we're on trial. But I think it's also an incredible opportunity, you know, to be able to differentiate yourself in that way, if you're working in an environment where nobody's trusted and like, what an opportunity to be able to set yourself apart.

Kenneth Kinney 9:34

Yeah. Permission to read a passage from the book. Yeah. So I love this. Even when marketers sales professionals and business owners have the absolute best of intentions. Most of us still don't do a very good job of backing up our business claims. Often when asked to expand upon a claim or provide more context. We simply repeat the claim or at best rephrase it, but not That's not how you win consumers trust. I love that. If you will let us know, in your mind, how does trust work? And moreover, what do you believe the expectations are today of customers and consumers?

Melanie Deziel 10:08

So what's interesting is that I think we actually have the ability to set those expectations. I think that the challenge is that we have set those expectations too high for the amount of evidence that we're producing, right. So it's kind of it those two ideas are really, really tightly related is that if we want to earn trust, not only do we have to fulfill the promises that we're making, it's sort of like table stakes, we're not going to go into deceptive business practices here. But you also need to prove that you are doing so.

Kenneth Kinney 10:37

So it's a very nebulous are, you know, it is

Melanie Deziel 10:40

it is yeah. But I think, you know, there's there is no, there is no, like, you need six blog posts, and that constitutes, you know, proof or that constitutes evidence, right, or like, you've officially provided three trustworthy things. And so like, now your trust score goes up, there's, it's not quite that objective, which can feel overwhelming. But I think the idea is, it's more about intention. And awareness is like, if you go into your marketing, go into your sales, your messaging, your positioning, with the understanding that your audience does not trust you, it changes the way you think about things, you can't just make outlandish claims, you can't just get carried away in your copy and start throwing adjectives to describe yourself in there. Because you know, in the back of your mind, I've got to be able to back this up, I've got to be able to provide proof. I think it puts us in a position where we're making more realistic claims, we're making more accurate claims. And we're also making it easier to be trusted, because we're putting it all out there.

Kenneth Kinney 11:38

When I saw you last present, you gave several examples about claims. One of them was Deathwish coffee, and it was a camera. It was mentioned in the book as well. But I remember you mentioning on stage advertised on their packaging, was the world's strongest coffee, obviously, could be some hyperbole here, but how would you have them say it? Does the consumer really need to believe or not believe that this is the world's strongest coffee?

Melanie Deziel 12:01

So that's a really good point is that, you know, some claims, I guess, are theoretically not meant to be believed, right? Sometimes they're just, you know, they're just silly, or they're, you know, this is what I would call like a subjective claim, right? Because, as far as I know, and I could be wrong, I don't know that there is an objective measure of coffee strength, like a parts per million calculation of some kind. Is it? Like, you know, what, I don't know, I don't know that. But most consumers don't, I think even if they had come at us and said it's, you know, 6.7 Caffeine particles per million, we'd be like, I don't know, means like, I don't know why you're telling me this. So I think in the case of some of those claims, particularly like massive claims, or really subjective claims, the way the best way to back something like that up is with corroboration is to have other people say it, because, you know, if you tell me it's the world's strongest coffee, like anybody could say that. But if you've got testimonials from people saying, you know, when I you know, a nurse who works, you know, 48 hour shifts, say, when I can't stay awake, nothing else helps me like this, you know, this is the strongest thing I've ever tried. This is the only thing I trust for you know, staying awake, whatever it is, you suddenly start to say, Okay, well, I now care less about the fact whether it's the strongest, but I know that it's strong. And that's actually what I'm looking for. One of the things that's really interesting is that for most of us, and for most purchase decisions, we're not generally looking for the actual best of anything. Like, do you have the best mechanic in the world or the best plumber in the world? Do you do buy the best T shirts in the world, like that's not the barometer that we use for buying most things. So there's, there's other things that are being considered that we probably need a bit more proof behind, you know, how effective it works, how convenient it is to access things like that.

Kenneth Kinney 13:49

Agreed. So we're going to talk about the the claims and you in the kind of think of it as the David Horowitz, Edgar School of explanation this all have them all in CS. So we're gonna dive into convenience, comparability commitment, connection, incompetence. First with convenience, the claim of convenience, you gave some great examples about customer service failures, especially the Geico ones and with how we express that but how would you rather someone like GEICO, I'm gonna use that one, one that we're fairly familiar with? How would you rather a company like that? Do it in a perfect marketing and advertising world so that if you hear somebody say, so easy, a caveman could do it? It may still to the point you mentioned earlier, it may far well outperform in an ad campaign, more practical and trustworthy messaging. And sometimes that's a harder argument internally with somebody who's demanding, hey, we need these more leads more sales, whatever you argue with, I'm with you on the trust all the way but it's sometimes it's also arguing it internally. And it's, again, a campaign that we're all familiar with.

Melanie Deziel 14:50

Well, what's what's really interesting about GEICO is that they actually kind of do a really good job of doing both so in addition to so easy a caveman could do it. They also have 50 mean minutes could save you 15 percenter, right? Yeah. So there's a very specific convenience playing like they're not, in this case, they're talking about speed. So you know, it's not going to take you a long time, and it's got decent enough output that it's worth that little time you're spending. So that's a much more specific

Kenneth Kinney 15:15

what to call them and start a clock to

Melanie Deziel 15:18

see that's the exact kind of person I'm talking about, right? Because you're not sure. But if you were to say, look, we've got a 15 minute YouTube video that shows that not only did they finish getting their quote, but they had time to make a pot of coffee, you know what I mean? That's where as silly as it may sound, something like that can can go a long way toward showing that like this is is actually as easy as it seems. I think in the case, again, like so easy, a caveman could do it. We don't have any cavemen to, you know, there's no objective cavemen until they can score that we can apply to measure that type of claim. But I think the real promise there when you hear so easy a caveman to do. It is right, like, my expectation is that it's not complicated. And so being able to prove that showing a very simple interface is one way to say, Oh, that's easy, I can see immediately how to navigate that, or, you know, missing this is the only five things you'll need to fill in like, oh, I don't have to gather a bunch of paperwork, that is easy, right? So just being able to add more detail to it, and provide that evidence, I think goes a long way.

Kenneth Kinney 16:19

So for comparability, how do we go about proving that alone, the What to do now section which talks about collaborating with someone else to produce an us versus them comparison, and that made me laugh, because again, reminds me of how interesting it is to what others say, that can be filled with more hyperbole than what we can ever say, as the brand itself. And that makes it completely okay. In a weird way.

Melanie Deziel 16:43

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So comparability or Yeah, Phil, Phil says comparability there's there's some debate here, I say comparability, but they're both the same, right, is really kind of some sort of claim that stacks you up against someone or something else. So oftentimes, you know, it's like the best, the fastest, you know, faster than any other option easier, quicker to install, whatever, you know, whatever it is, it's it's in comparison to something. And typically, one of the best ways to prove out a comparability claim is actually with demonstration. And the best examples of this is like every infomercial you've ever seen, they demonstrate how their product performs versus the next leading competitor, right to get the two shirts with ketchup and grass themes and whatever red wine, like don't come in and stuff and they come up and you see one got clean and one didn't like you saw it with your own eyes. This is how we compare. Now the infomercial like cheesy side by side split screen approach may not work for every type of product, but there is probably some version of that that you could do to show how those things happen. So just coming back to our Geico, 15 minutes, it's easy to say that you could do this twice, once with Geico once with someone else. And compare those times, you could do it many times and create an average response time here and average response time there and show it side by side. You know, you could talk about, you know, average ratings for things and show it side by side, there's just ways to do it that, you know, are essentially demonstrating, you know, here's how it looks with some other solution, even if it's not a specific company or brand. And here's how it looks with

Kenneth Kinney 18:15

Bill does call french fries chips, so it's comparability. So as long as he calls it chips, we're going to call it variability. Commitment. When you spoke about commitment, you say to help people, especially young people want to buy from companies that have a commitment to values and that promise, if you will, in be defined in a lot of different ways by a lot of different audiences. How should we go about doing that?

Melanie Deziel 18:39

So the the biggest thing, I think, commitment claims are have the biggest opportunity for backlash if they're not done appropriately, right. Because if you say something works, and it doesn't, like we all have those brand experiences, you get a refund, or you try something else, right? You know, if you are making a purchase, because you believe that your money is going towards something that you see as part of your identity, and then you find out that it went toward not that or worst case like that opposite, that that shakes you to your core, because you're like, now I have done something that goes against my identity. Right? So there's, there's, it's a very careful balance with commitment claims. Usually, this connects with like corporate social responsibility or charitable giving or some other element of the business but commitment to a value like sustainability. You know, like LGBTQ rights, or you know, pay it. Exactly, right. So any sort of value belief, you know, a cause that you really committed to, people need to see that play out in order to believe it because, again, remember, not they want to buy according to their values, but they also disrupt so you're saying I'm supporting this, that's not enough to push them over the line to actually buy it. So that's where we need to bring that proof in. And that could be through case studies, you know, showing if you have a commitment to sustainability like, you know, do With a case study and show how much water is saved with your process or, you know, go back to the comparability and show how, you know, the two processes are different and the outcomes there, how they differ. It's really about finding a way to bring the receipts and show that that commitment is actually happening behind the scenes. And behind the scenes content is sometimes the best stuff, the best way that you can show that kind of thing to say like, look, you know, a company who does this, and I can't remember the name of the company off top my head, do you remember that would be awesome. There is a company in the marketing space, it might be buffer that actually has all of their salaries publicly listed, because they're so committed to HubSpot is one of those, one of those social tech companies, but they actually have all their all their salaries of all employees are publicly available, because they're trying their commitment to pay transparency, transparency, and pay equality. It's like, we are so sure, and so clear on this commitment that we don't mind showing all the data, because we know we're not going to be found in a lie, we're acting this outdated. So, you know, you don't necessarily have to go to that link. But that kind of thing. You know, just showing that like, it's not just lip service, there's, there's actions to back this up. You know, that's the kind of thing that can push them over that disc from disrupt into trust and being willing to make that value based purchase.

Kenneth Kinney 21:25

Well, another one you brought up and I laughed at the time I saw you talk about it, because you get so excited about it was Patagonia. And so yeah, I think you presented at Content Marketing World. Yeah, it's the day after he had given away the company. What I thought would be interesting, obviously, though, because it got everybody elated with how he was really leaning into commitment. But at the same time as a journalist, if you delve a little bit deeper, you can find where he gave it as a trust and it also saved him from nearly a billion dollars in taxes and he still gets keeps Yeah, I wish I wish everybody go a little bit deeper on that, but I thought it was great connection let's talk about the connection claim and the importance of an Atlantic blue Ford Escort.

Melanie Deziel 22:08

So the story with the Ford Escort, you know, connection just to figure it out so commitment is really a one on one directional thing I'm committed to that cause that thing over there connection is really a two way relationship right it's it's there's ongoing interaction, there's there's a connection between two people. This is like the Euro person, a name not a number kind of vibe. The escort is a car that a woman named Kathy Reed sold my mom back in 1997 The mom had had a bad car buying experience and so it was kind of skeptical that Kathy had that place called Family forward and we'd like that hoping for that like family treatment, you know, the family family family experience, I guess. And she certainly got that with Kathy so Kathy is wonderful and you know, remembered things like our car buying anniversary and sent cards had my mom a calendar made for the following year that had the picture of all of us standing in front of the new car, you know, she knew my mom would love that picture of us kids right? stayed in touch, you know, congratulated us on milestones and what's consistently there for us in ways that seem unreasonable like that you wouldn't expect from a first time buyer because of that connection. So you know, has come in like helped us through via text method you know, has come in last minute and helped us with things getting the loaner cars we had an emergency My favorite example of her like going above and beyond like that and just because of the relationship we had my mom got a pet so I was supposed to drive my mom's car down at the time from Connecticut to DC for an internship and like the night before the car died like my you know my car died and so we were in need of like another option so basically Kathy hook this up managed to get us a car get it all figured out quickly. And while I we were buying this new car, she had the old car details so that when I got the old car I would have this like new car feeling and an old car and now she wasn't getting commission on that old car. He sold it to us years ago. She had literally no reason to care at all about that car right? But he was treating us like family like if this were my kid getting a car I want them to have that new car failing instead of being said that their car just died and I'm talking donuts drive thru. So you know, she really made that difference and I think we can trace like 20 Plus cars that have been purchased from Kathy because she maintains that relationship because she continues to you know, treat us like family and know about different family milestones and now I wrote about the book so hopefully even more good things come her way. You know,

Kenneth Kinney 24:49

this Kathy continue to sell cars. She she sells him today. Yeah, so is she is fascinating. I love that story because it made me think about my own first car and And just, you know, back before we just automated the poop out of Melanie bought a car, so let's just send her 1000 coupons for a new car a year from now. And that's it's just a lot of the digital marketing. Automation has destroyed connection in a way that I love hearing somebody that did it that way then is still doing it that way. Now, it's those little touches that can just be just amazing. So

Melanie Deziel 25:26

yeah, yeah, I think this is probably where the closest overlap is between like the proven approach to creating content and like customer experience, that's probably the closest overlap isn't that commitment area, because it's really about, I'm telling you, I'm committed to my customers, I'm committed to building or I'm connected to you and building this relationship. Like, you've got to show that that's something that needs to be told, because, you know, you never would have heard about Kathy, if I didn't have this wonderful connection, this ability to share that experience as proof of that connection that she provides.

Kenneth Kinney 25:56

Well, so last but not least is competence. This competence claim discussion was great. You brought up how you even got pitch by somebody I think about your book and getting promoted was one of the things that people have to do more quickly, even today with so many choices, whatever product or service, whoever it is selling us, how do we go about proving competence?

Melanie Deziel 26:17

Competence is, you know, it's funny, because it's the last one that I talked about in the book, which some people are like, Isn't it like, just that'd be the first one. But the reality is last, because everyone makes competence plans, right? That's not probably where you'll differentiate yourself. It's just sort of table stakes. It really is. But yeah, competence plans are anything that has to do with like, I deliver the results that I stand going to deliver that I have experienced that there is some legacy involved, like you can trust that we do what we say we're going to do. And these kinds of claims, you can do a lot of things to show your competence. And I think in truth, a lot of the other stuff that you'll be doing, proving some of those other claims kind of demonstrates your competence, just by virtue of doing that, right. If I'm showing you the results we create in comparison to someone else, then hopefully that shows how competent we are. So there's a lot of overlap. But when it comes to competence, case studies and examples from the stories from the past are going to be one of your most powerful things to do. So. I mean, even again, finding overlap, my Kathy's ability to sell a car is not probably in question. After hearing that story. Even though that's a story about our relationship and the connection we have, it demonstrates our competence, just by virtue of of the story existing. So you'll probably find that a lot of your other content has your competence sprinkled into it. But this is a time where you really want to focus on success stories and results that you've driven and how you can share those results in a way that isn't coming just from you.

Kenneth Kinney 27:45

Great job of talking about what trust is and how to prove it. But I'm just curious with convenience, comparability, commitment, connection, and competence. Any of those resonate more strongly for you, as you look at it and your journalistic approach,

Melanie Deziel 28:01

instead, really interesting, because for different industries, different ones kind of seem to pop or be more more important for different types of purchases, or like, you know, if I'm buying, like, you know, snack bags, put the some snacks to school with my kid, I'm not super worried about their commitment to most things, unless I'm trying to find a more sustainable option. I don't really want to have a personal relationship with GLAAD or Ziploc you know, to buy these things. So I'm looking for convenience and competence. Like, is the bag gonna stay together? Is it cheap and doesn't come from the size that I need. So you'll find that as you look at, you know, examine, like your business, your services, there will probably be some that are most relevant depending on what matters to your customers, most what objections you hear commonly is another clue. But yeah, I think that they all have a place, but I think the degree to which you emphasize them, or like put them forward as some of the others, it is going to depend really on like the whole buying experience and the customer mindset for that particular product or industry.

Kenneth Kinney 29:02

So I always kind of like to ask people, where do you want people to start, but I was thinking about this, you know, there's proving it to your audience, that you're buying audience, but what advice would you give to someone inside a company, whether they're the CEO CMO, or just a lonely lonely marketer in the back corner as to how to go about proving this, the higher ups if you will, that this should be done, they're going to be looking for proof that this works, and really how to measure it.

Melanie Deziel 29:29

So it's funny, you mentioned proof because that was gonna be my exact my exact recommendation. So you can use this exact framework to prove it out to your higher ups that it's worth doing. So find stories that are case studies that you can point to as success stories, folks who are out there creating the type of content and doing it hopefully in your industry, but if not, at least for a similar type of customer. You also want to bring data if you can, right so bring evidence that this stuff works. If you need an example the Edelman annual trust brown literature just came out and has a stat just like I mentioned 59% of consumers default distrust, and it literally says until they're provided evidence. So like, it's right there there. There's plenty of proof that backs up that providing proof is going to help you build that trust with your customers deepen that relationship, and hopefully differentiate yourself.

Kenneth Kinney 30:20

Of all the brands that you looked at which one stands out to you as the best resonator of the things you're talking about in this book? Who who proves it to Melanie the best?

Melanie Deziel 30:33

Yeah, this is a tough one I looked at I looked at a lot of different brands and case studies for this kind of thing. I think Zapier, Zapier, I never know how to pronounce it. It's a really good example. Yeah, right.

Kenneth Kinney 30:46

Real quick. See if it's

Melanie Deziel 30:48

I'm sure there's I'm sure there's multiple options. But they're a company that does integrations. And so they're really selling convenience. And they have such an amazing content library on their site. That just I mean, they've got 1000s of products that they integrate and services that they integrate with. And there's content about every single one. For reals, educational content on how you know how to set it up. So you can see how easy it is case studies of people who are using their product to integrate all kinds of really cool things and save so much time. i It's hard to find folks who provide that much evidence around convenience, we often see, you know, index stuff with regards with some of the others, but that much. There's just like a commitment to content there that I have to respect.

Kenneth Kinney 31:32

Yeah, one of the reasons that I love this point, the whole point of the book, and I'm just going to add, as we go towards the close is I think this is a great book for marketers, especially in the b2b space, because I've worked in both b2c and b2b. And to your point about snack bags. Yeah, I'm with you. There's a lot of times this whole discussion about proving it, not only is proving it to the internal team and Zapier, Zapier, I'm trying to remember what which version I say, is done a good job of it. But it's also, I think, really proving it to the procurement department in large companies where you've got these decision makers who need to have multiple touch points. And so the more evidence you can gather for the jury and go back to the legal point, it makes a really big differentiator in your decision making process. So Melanie, last time I asked you, when we went to the clothes, what your favorite kind of shark was, and of course, you were completely well versed. And you talked about 20 or 30 of your favorites. Just kidding, but then it came down to Baby shark because your daughter so this time I'll ask you with a question that you're probably a little more familiar with, I hope who is your favorite javelin thrower of all time? Oh, man, I don't know one. I've never heard of one. Except for the one I've turned off during the Olympics.

Melanie Deziel 32:44

So I'm gonna have a hard time in a specific one because I'm years out of practice. For some background context. I was javelin thrower in high school. So I think anybody that could name is probably long since retired. But we do see a lot of amazing Javelin throwers come out of like the Netherlands, especially that sort of was on Iceland. So a lot of something starter is probably the last name that is a good indication you're looking at a killer javelin thrower. If you're looking at

Kenneth Kinney 33:12

what was your favorite sport other than javelin and track and field did you do all the

Melanie Deziel 33:17

I did discuss as well, I was decent. But I'm not a shotput person. I'm not built for shop.

Kenneth Kinney 33:24

Well, Molly is to give that special time to show you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today. Yeah. All right. Number one, University of Connecticut or Syracuse University

Melanie Deziel 33:39

is a tough one. But literally, the motto for UConn is today Huskies forever, so I'm gonna have to go.

Kenneth Kinney 33:46

Alright, number two. You're at Nora cafe in Raleigh, which you mentioned in the book, you review request a hot coffee or a cold brew coffee? Yeah, but you're decaf, aren't you? I am. I don't understand that. That's

Melanie Deziel 34:03

so. I mean, the backstory is I love coffee. I love the ritual of it, the smell the taste, but the caffeine is you know, I could do without some of the side effects there. So I allow myself to indulge in the ritual and all that. But you know, hopefully without my heart exploding, well, I'm

Kenneth Kinney 34:18

Deathwish I'll just take the bean right off the tree and put it in my mouth. So Alright. Number three, what is the more trustworthy source to its audience? So good journalist question. You can student newspaper where you worked the daily campus, or the New York Times?

Melanie Deziel 34:35

Oh, well, the New York Times has a hell of a lot more resources. So I'd have to imagine. Diligence.

Kenneth Kinney 34:42

Yeah. Agreed.

Melanie Deziel 34:44

Probably probably had more resources behind him.

Kenneth Kinney 34:48

A little more bias though. I would imagine that because there's no there's not like like a lot of politics I would imagine going on at the Daily campus.

Melanie Deziel 34:55

You'd be surprised the amount of drama that happens on on a student campus we got student Governor Then going on, we got clubs, there's funding problem. Oh, it's a whole thing.

Kenneth Kinney 35:04

Oh, yeah, the Democrats, the Republicans beating each other up on campus. All right, number four. Now that you've moved, that's a good question down down to the, I guess you're in the south now. So any of the three New York airport airports that you would have traveled out of before JFK, Newark, or LaGuardia, or the Raleigh Durham airport that you can use that use today, which is in and out in 10 minutes.

Melanie Deziel 35:31

So it wasn't a really tough question. RDU is more convenient, just because there's fewer people there. But because it's a smaller airport, they don't have as many Yeah, you almost always have to go for a layover. And they don't have as many of the amenities. So like, you can't use clear to get through, they don't have clear to get through security. You know, not as not as many coffee options inside. But, you know, RDU is home base now. So

Kenneth Kinney 35:56

well, if you're going to heaven or hell, you gotta make a connection out of Atlanta. That's, that's the old saying.

Melanie Deziel 36:02

We get a lot of DC connections.

Kenneth Kinney 36:05

Alright, so number five is she wants before biscuits or cornbread. So I gotta ask you a different question. Now that we're getting closer to the season number five, and the most important question that you're going to be asked today is turkey or ham.

Melanie Deziel 36:20

Well, Turkey, I don't eat pork. So Turkey, definitely. But also, I mean Thanksgiving's the best.

Kenneth Kinney 36:26

True. All right. So melody, where can people find out more about you learn about the book, what you're doing and more.

Melanie Deziel 36:34

So if you head over to story, fuel, that CEO story, fu el.co. That's my home base. So you'll find info about the books about you know, having these feet working with me all my social links whenever you need over there lots of resources for marketers and storytellers.

Kenneth Kinney 36:49

Melody, thank you for coming back and being with us today on A Shark’s Perspective.

Melanie Deziel 36:54

Thanks for let me share my story.

[music]

Kenneth Kinney 37:01

So there was my conversation with Melanie Deziel, the the co-founder of the agency the Convoy, a keynote speaker, a former journalist and lifelong storyteller, and the author “Prove It: Exactly How Modern Marketers Earn Trust.” Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with her.

Kenneth Kinney 37:17

First, is your brand on trial, guilty as charged, I think but I'm a cynic. Melanie says consumers default to distrust innocent until proven guilty. Trust is a differentiator in that if you could show that you're more trustworthy than another brand, then you're way ahead, start thinking about the claims you regularly make. Can you back it up? Can you walk the talk customers are asking, that's why they're considering you. So go into this knowing your audience likely doesn't trust you, for them make it easier to be trusted.

Kenneth Kinney 37:47

Second, when you think about trust and marketing and advertising, just look at the typical campaigns. For example, people use so many superlatives. Think about a PPC campaign. Even if you leverage the machine learning and AdWord engines, then they will default to what works which may in fact be the hyperbole your customers are questioning or trying to avoid. Just because it performs better in the engine. Being the best ever may give you a quick click through that being not trustworthy, can be a forever bounce out.

Kenneth Kinney 38:16

Third, demonstrate how your product or service performs. It's one of the best and easiest ways to show how you can walk the talk. Don't just say it, show it. Especially think of the cost of burning trust with commitment. Is the cost so bad when they get a refund? Yes, but it's actually much worse. The complex costs you don't see when losing trust goes far beyond the simple price.

Kenneth Kinney 38:41

Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective.com.

Kenneth Kinney 38:45

Thank you again for the privilege of your time, and I'm so thankful to everyone who listens.

Kenneth Kinney 38:50

Be someone who proves it today. And thank you for letting me share my story. Join us on the next episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)