****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

Joseph Jaffe 0:00

Hi, I'm Joseph Jaffe and you're listening to a A Shark’s Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)

Kenneth Kinney 0:21

Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark’s Perspective. I am Kenneth Kinney, but friends call me Shark. I'm a keynote speaker, strategist, a shark diver, host of this show, and your Chief Shark Officer.

Kenneth Kinney 0:32

What's the lifespan of a company? After all empires fail? Many come and go while others try to cheat the Sands of Time. Yet why is it that companies constantly fail to innovate and get frankly, too big to succeed? What's their future? Should we just say thanks and let them shut down with their final product offering? And why are so many of these companies just built to suck?

Kenneth Kinney 0:54

Joseph Jaffe is a talk show host, a consultant, speaker, author of “Built to Suck: The Inevitable Demise of the Corporation...and How to Save It?” and his newest “Forever Changed”.

Kenneth Kinney 1:05

And on this episode, we'll discuss company sucking less with bad service life in your message before the pandemic and after and more after a heart scare web 3.0 NF TS what the next generation wants at a corporation community scarcity, a collective and abundance mindset, an armored car in Venezuela and kidnapping Insurance South Africa's way in the world. Nelson Mandela, Elon Musk Jaffe and fruit juices, pandemic platforms, superhero fights, won't eat carbs, and a lot, lot more.

Kenneth Kinney 1:33

So let's tune into a not famous Joseph with an infamous shark on this episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

[intro music]

Kenneth Kinney 1:43

Joseph, welcome to A Shark’s Perspective. Would you please tell us a little bit about your background and your career today?

Joseph Jaffe 1:49

Yeah, well, you know, my my new way of describing myself not so new is BPA P before pandemic after pandemic. So, before pandemic, I was a chronic consultant speaker. I've written five books I've keynoted in 50 plus countries, including Venezuela of all places. And and then of course, the pandemic hits, everything goes to hell in a handbasket. And I became a talk show host. So, you know, today, if you ask me, and you just did, I'll tell you, I'm a talk show host. And I'm proud of it. And in addition to that, I dabble a little bit in in the web three. And so just a little bit, just a little bit. It's been it's been an interesting journey.

Kenneth Kinney 2:34

So why did you see Venezuela?

Joseph Jaffe 2:37

Because it's, it's the craziest place. That's one. And it's one I'm fairly certain I'll never go back to it's not. You know what, at least I think I might have gone in with a South African passport. That's the one advantage of having dual citizenship. But it's it's not the safest place for America.

Kenneth Kinney 2:56

It's no, no, I used to live in South America but not in Venezuela.

Joseph Jaffe 2:59

Although if anyone's watching from Venezuela, I seriously, but I had the best time the people are incredible. I I'll tell you just a quick anecdote. I was there with Philip Kotler who's like my hero, my role model, you know, in marketing, and the two of us are the two keynote speakers. And we were in an armored car with like, two security guards with like, semi automatic weaponry. And I'm just trying to make conversation. So I was like, so you're like with Caitlyn Jaffe? Like, what? When's your next gig? And they said, Tomorrow night, we're with Maroon Five. Like you screwed up majorly? They, me and you weren't like, although these days like Adam Levine is not exactly in the news for the right reasons. True. Maybe the good gig was Jaffe not Levine, who knows? I don't know.

Kenneth Kinney 3:47

Yeah, it's something you have to think about is when you deliver a keynote now is kidnapping insurance. So that's the story of the day. So talk a little bit about what you went through before pandemic and after pandemic and during the pandemic when you had some life changes as well with your heart.

Joseph Jaffe 4:03

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I'm one of the few people that can honestly say that 2021 sucked way worse than 2020 because, you know, I went I turned 50 I went for my routine physical, I was in fine shape. I'd been running I was exercising it's one thing during the pandemic, I really really was very active physically. And and the doctor was like, Yeah, you're in great shape except for the moment I was like the Milwaukee the merman, the mermaid, the midwives, and turned out I needed open heart surgery, which which developed complications. I ended up with, with with three infections. A second surgery for hospital stays in total, and then I got COVID to boot. And yeah, it was just life. I mean, life changing in the sense that it really put everything if the pandemic didn't put everything into perspective, well, this year is held dead. And it's actually like really He propelled me. You know, originally I was thinking, what would my next keynote be? What would my next book be? Would I ever write another book? And so I started to think about a book called pivot, you know, kind of how, how I changed my entire life because of a global pandemic. And then I realized with with the heart surgery, it pushed me even further. And so, you know, I was inspired and wrote my second book, in three weeks, titled for forever changed. Our global pandemic changed my direction, my purpose and my life. And so like, you know, one of the things in this book that I say is, um, like, it's so part of me now, which is, look, if you didn't change your life, during this time, then you wasted an opportunity. You know, it's like, how many signs like what what else do you need, in order to convince you that to move to the light to be happy to be fulfilled to pursue your purpose on this planet? But and it shouldn't have to take a global pandemic to change your life? Right? But it helps. And what if there was a way to actually develop a formula to kind of do that without needing to go through all the catharsis. So it's really been something that that, you know, like I say, No, in the book, write it down, everybody, write it down, write down your story, don't let this don't let it become memories, faint, foggy, you know, ambiguous memories. Write down where you were like, to your point shot, where you were before pandemic, where you were, after pandemic, how you felt the day the world stopped and stood still write it down, you know, and crystallize it. It's like a different kind of journaling. Because this is a moment that will come about, hopefully, not more frequently than 100 years. And you have a responsibility to yourself, to your family, and to the people that come off to you to make sure that they don't make maybe the same mistakes you did, which was, you know, ssdd, same different day.

Kenneth Kinney 7:13

Yeah. So I couldn't agree with your point at the end about life in particular, any better than that? I mean, I agree completely. How do you think this has changed you with your marketing message? Because you speak to audiences as well, and you're doing it through your talk show, from a marketing perspective, not just a life perspective? How are you approaching that differently than you did before?

Joseph Jaffe 7:33

You know, I've I've always been my whole career has been skating to where the puck was going, right, the Wayne Gretzky quote. And I've always been pretty good at predicting, not the future in terms of, you know, the singularity and all this crazy stuff, but like, like very good at being able to anticipate what's next. You know, as a case in point in 2004, when I wrote life after the 32nd spot, I came up with 10 approaches, one of them was called communal marketing, which I defined as marketing to and through communities, social media, as a term didn't exist, nor did Facebook, one of them was consumer generated content, YouTube didn't exist yet. So I really have a track record of being able to kind of, you know, plot out where the world is heading. And so in many respects, now, I look at marketing. And even yesterday, in my keynote, my first IRL keynote, I gave, I said, Well, the question is Can marketing that everyone says marketing is dying? Can marketing be saved? Can the corporation save marketing, to which I say can marketing save the corporation? Number one, and number two, is it's moving towards what I call now community capitalism. And the formula there is shared values, shared ownership, shared rewards. So it's a different kinds of marketing, right? Even when I wrote a book called 00, paid media is the new marketing model. The you know, I would say, don't pay for attention, pay attention. But there was a bigger vision, which is what happens when marketing moves from being a, an expense, a cost center to a revenue generator, when we move from being tenants to landlords, so for me, marketing serves a mission critical purpose, but it's one where we are not just spraying and praying, telling and selling, but it's one that we can actually really, I think, for the for the first time deliver on the promise and potential of community, you know, and, you know, shock ultimately, it always comes down to one word, which is differentiation, right? How are you different in the hearts and minds of your consumer number one, number two is, is why would I choose a commoditized? Brand? A over a commoditized? brand B, you know, whether it's rental cars, whether it's airlines, whether it's hotels, whether it's, you know, cell phones, I mean, I always tell the story. I was walking down the streets in New York City And this is before at&t bought Cingular Wireless. And it said there was a poster that said Cingular Wireless, the network with the fewest dropped calls. And I was like, you're actually selling yourself saying, We suck the least. So that's, that's not a way to build a business and a brand and a relationship. So for me, so what differentiates if it's not the four Ps? Well, it used to be, I would say, customer service, customer experience, you know, you know, Your call is important to us and will be answered this is I'm speaking your language, and will be answered in the audit was received your number 275,009. My guess is you're very important to us, you know, your way time is one hour and 45 minutes, but I thought you said I was important to you. So So I think there's something even more than that. And for me, now, it is going to be this idea of community capitalism, we choose a brand, a company that not only shares our values, but actually is committed to making this world a better place. And listen, you know, perfect timing. Patagonia's founder, just gave away the company. So it's like, okay, that's now the gold standard, we can spend the rest of our lives trying to emulate which we won't, you know, as I said, yesterday, in my keynote, I would have just given away a quarter of the company, you know, I'm not as big. But I've been like, wow, you know, so that's now, that's the gold standard, and we can spend the rest of our lives trying to get there, we may, we probably won't.

Kenneth Kinney 11:35

Well, more than that is to go back to the reference about your time in line is now that they'll call you back in a couple of days. And they remind you, you never lose your place in line waiting for customer service to call it back. So that's the that's the sad, polite way of them raising their bar.

Joseph Jaffe 11:50

I think the callback is better, though, right? I mean, the callback says rather than wait, we can call you back, when it's your turn, I can tell you the copy. I really, you know, like I know it when it's your turn in two hours and 43 minutes. And so here's my little juvenile thing that I do, which is they go, please leave your name. You know, and so I go You worthless pieces. And so and so, what will happen, they'll go when you worthless pieces, is there, you know. And so that's what I do is like, I just insult them. And so obviously, the automated system thinks that that's my name.

Kenneth Kinney 12:31

Absolutely. I'm curious, you just got back from South Africa. When you go back and speak to people there. How are people looking at the world differently there because the pandemic affected us here differently in the US? I'm kind of curious what you saw when you were there?

Joseph Jaffe 12:48

Well, let me let me tell you, when it comes to health care, I'm not sure we are the gold standard in the world at all. You know, it's funny that because there you pick up different things in different countries. So for example, I think I think the health care in South Africa is called discovery momentum, or discovery or something. And so for example, when I was there, there is a 5k fun run every Saturday morning. And everyone that finishes the 5k Fun Run gets gets like a token or they have a membership pass, and they log those they log that activity into their health care system. And it actually gives them perks and even discounts their monthly fee, based on them being active and keeping active. So in some cases, you know, the thing about South Africa, I mean, I am you know, I'm born there. So like if anybody wants to, like, I'll use myself not in a, you know, in an egotistical or, you know, or a narcissistic way, but to say, oh, Jaffe, he's got a funny accent. And some of the time is reasonably intelligent. Well, there are many more people like me, in South Africa, they, you know, there's, there's an interesting entrepreneurial spirit, there's a can do approach. There's a, you know, we don't really respect rules that much in South Africa. And so South Africa has produced some really brilliant, brilliant, you know, leaders and I mean, Nelson Mandela, probably number one, you know, Chris Barnard, who led the first first human transplant, so, you know, and then there's that Elon Musk guy who's a little crazy. So and Matthews, no, and that's no but but, I mean, so there is a beautiful can do approach. But you know, one thing I've learned from keynoting around the world is, first of all, as someone who wasn't born in the US, we tend to be very US centric when we keynote, right? So we go to another country, and we kind of don't really often some of us do, but customize or personalize or make sure that that that what we're saying is not to US centric. And so, you know, one of the questions I'll often get is, well, that's fine for you in the US, but what about us here? And so like when it came to like digital, I mean, I was a digital evangelist, and then always kind of focused on, you know, I call myself the Robin Hood meets Ricky Gervais, you know, like to steal from the rich and give to the poor, you know, and, and drink while doing it. And in sell people know, but that was the old joke. But, you know, I always talk about timing, right? So everything in life is about timing, you know, would you rather be too early or too late. But here's the thing, if you think you're too late, you are earlier than the people that are going to come, you know, one year in one year's time wishing that they had started, when you started, where you were wishing you started at a year earlier. So in some respects, you know, Victor Hugo once said, There is nothing as powerful as an idea whose time has come, if you believe that the idea is strong enough that it will be universally applicable, you know, and valuable and relevant. Or then it's almost like my message to those audiences would be guess what, you know, like, I've seen the future, and this is the future, you now have a head start. So good luck. And you know, you're out in front if you take advantage of the opportunity. And so that's how I've always dealt with different, you know, audiences, and realizing that not everyone is at the same place at the same time.

Kenneth Kinney 16:35

Yeah, and the only reason I ask is I've lived in other countries, I've spoken in other countries as well, probably not as many as you. But I'm always fascinated by people that are looking at the US a different way, looking at their own lives a different way, and really just helps you to develop a broader perspective, that, again, to your point, not so insular and isolated from the rest of the world, I think social media has done that here a lot in a lot of countries aren't spending nearly the amount of time is we are this couple of countries that are spending a lot more and it's it's very interesting to see how people think, all over the world.

Joseph Jaffe 17:10

And I've also keynoted through several US presidents. And it's always very interesting, you know, to see how the world views the US, you know, and in some cases, you know, you know, people can insert, you know, mix and match insert the President to the, to the moment but, but it's been amazing seeing us at times respected and revered, and other times, ridiculed, you know, and chastised. And so you really do get a sense when you get out the country to understand how the world sees, sees the US, in some cases, even this idea, you know, have the greatest kind of, we're the greatest country in the world. Well, you know, you're only the greatest country of the world, if you can prove you're the greatest country in the world, and if people believe it, and if they aspire to want to be a part of it. So a lot of it is branding, right? A lot of it is, is perception is reality. And so like, I've enjoyed that part of the travel, I've enjoyed that part of meeting new people, and always expanding my belief set, and sometimes, you know, suspending disbelief, and being open to different perspectives, and, you know, and always adapting accordingly.

Kenneth Kinney 18:28

Well, it wasn't so much a marketing question, I think I was just thinking about your heart surgery, because I've got friends that still come over here for more innovative procedures, but access to basic health care and a lot of other countries is a lot better than it is here.

Joseph Jaffe 18:42

Yeah. And in terms of specialists, you know, for sure, I mean, you know, because again, the thing is, this is such a huge market and so one of the things that I've always loved about the country is that you know, you really can be super successful by being mediocre if you think about it, I mean you can you can if you find something or develop something you know even like what I love about it speaking of sharks and Shark Tank, you know, you can find a product that really is a mass market product and and and that's the beauty of it is like you can really deliver and create and tailor and merchandise a product that is tailored to the early and late majority right 68% of the audience and if you just do the math, and we certainly have the means and the mechanism in the form of Amazon and Instagram etc. It you know, it read the American that is this the essence of the American dream, you know that and the ability to be able to to build and sustain a life. So you know, it it's funny how we're like talking about this but really like it you know, it it's relevant to me because when I wrote bull to suck the inspiration behind it was a chart that I saw in my daughter's classroom that basically showed 5000 years of history. And you saw these civilizations and dynasties and empires and not one of them survived Ming, Ottoman Romans, Egyptians, you know, Nazi Germany, you know, the, and suddenly you look at it the Spanish, I don't know conquistadores or whatever. And, and suddenly you look at this and you go like, wait a second, if it's true about empires and dynasties, and you know, then and civilizations, it has to be true about corporations and brands. And it certainly shouldn't be true about countries. And then you start it starts to get like, really interesting when you see you SSR. And you see EU and you're like, Well, I think there was this thing called Brexit. And then suddenly you look down and you see USA, and you think, Well, I wonder, is it possible? It has to be? How is it possible? If you ply, apply the reverse logic, and it becomes obvious? How is it possible that this young country will somehow cheat the Sands of Time and be able to do what no one else has done before? And the answer is without innovation and disruption and even with it's, it's inevitable, you know, what's going to happen? And that is like, as I say, in the book, suckage is inevitable with size and scale. Come suckage deal with it.

Kenneth Kinney 21:24

You worked in the title of three of your five books without me even getting to ask you a four with the new one. So I was gonna ask you about your book....

Joseph Jaffe 21:32

That's what happens when you join the conversation.

Kenneth Kinney 21:35

Exactly. So your your book from a few years ago that brought you obviously a lot of fame was built to suck the inevitable demise of the corporation, how to save it? How do we go about saving these behemoths? And, you know, what is a company learned from sucking less?

Joseph Jaffe 21:49

Yeah, well, the key to success is to suck less. But that is just the bandaid solution, right? A gaping, hemorrhaging wound. And, and you know, the funny thing is, I'll tell people that are listening, I don't even care if anyone buys a copy of the book anymore. Like in my, in my like, you know, off to pandemic life. It's not even a part of my life anymore. I really don't care anymore. Like, I tell you what, I do care.

Kenneth Kinney 22:13

I mean, from a monetary standpoint, or from a message standpoint, on

Joseph Jaffe 22:16

the message standpoint, I absolutely want them to in fact, I'd rather I'd rather give them the book, you know, but but but part of it as well. And I'll come back to the your question is, we need a new model, we need a new model that benefits authors and artists, you know, as, as our mutual friend fans, oh says, to take the struggling out of struggling artist. And you know, one of the things about this new book about forever change is it's going to be the world's first book where readers earn royalties. And I actually think what excites me about this is that I think that every book could go the same way, every movie could go the same way. Every band, or every concert could go this or album could go the same way that we actually say, I mean, this is community capitalism, that we share the spoils with the people that keep us in business, which is our fans, our customers, etc. To answer your point, the there are four pillars in bold to suck, which is digital disruption, customer obsession, talent, resurrection, and corporate citizenship. Now, all of that all of this pre seeded this world now of web three. So now corporate citizenship would would very much fall and feed into community capitalism, right? We have to be a global citizen, a global corporate citizen, like a Patagonia like, like we've seen with Lululemon, like we've seen with leaders like, you know, John Mackey, or, you know, or even even luminaries like Philip Kotler, it's not even the Business Roundtable saying the primary responsibility of a corporation is to serve all all stakeholders, not just external shareholders. So you've got those four pillars, but But ultimately, there are a couple of things. One, is this. Maybe one of the most like, certainly one of the top three things I've ever come up with, is this idea of heresy, or are you prepared to put yourself out of business before somebody else does? What if you find yourself What if you left money on the table? What if you slaughtered the cash cow? What if you funded your company, your competitor came up with all these heresies? Every single one of these heresies has come true? What if you got out of the business you were in? Amazon doesn't sell books anymore? I mean, not predominantly, you know, what if you, you know, turned your back on your customer? You know, this idea of firing a customer. I mean, Rei closing on Black Friday, you know, Netflix stopping to sell DVDs, all of them have happened, you know, Andy Grove firing himself at Intel. So So one of the ideas is to just you know, I almost say it's the three Ds Right? Which is which is disrupt, okay, dissect or dissolve. Right. So when a company becomes too big, that they lose their competitive edge, that you know, siloed, dysfunctional, slow moving, risk averse, you know, in other words, a company and public company, when you get to that point, you only have three Ds, right? You either dissect and break it into smaller parts, right, you disrupt you reinvent, or you dissolve, you say, in fact, one of the ultimate heresies is, what if a corporation had a term at a you know, like there were there were terms for corporations. You know, like, we certainly think members of Congress should have some kind of terms, term limits. What if there were term limits for corporations, you'd be like, you know, PNG gets to 100. And they go, Well, thanks, everyone. For that it was a great run. Well, let's enjoy the show. Yeah, well, he is. The title of this podcast should be enjoyed this. So

Kenneth Kinney 26:07

well, so how do you argue that though, with people that eventually just want to make money? Because is good heart is that is how are you going to convince a generation of people to change the way they look at just the greed they make in a corporation?

Joseph Jaffe 26:22

Because that's not what people want anymore? I mean, it's, it's how much is, you know, I had Ray Higdon on my show, and we spoke and one of the things he says, and you know, he's one of those super, you know, Tony Robbins, like, coaches and mentors. And, you know, he made money, he, he lost it, he made it back, you know, but one of the things he says in his book is Money doesn't buy happiness. And, and so I said, Well, let me push back on that, which is, it's all it's fine for you to say, because you have money, you know, so like, I gave him that. And he said, Well, here's the thing. There's a really interesting insight. He said, money and happiness are actually two different things. But somehow we've, you know, correlation that what's a causation doesn't equal correlation, right? Or the other way around, whatever. But But it's like, we're, we're conflating and we're, we're connecting to things that are actually independent. That's the first point. The second thing which I loved about it, he said, Look, when you don't have money, you compare yourself to someone who has money. When you have money, who do you compare yourself to, like, at some point, someone who has more money, and then someone who has more money? Who do they compare? And so that's where there's this feeling of being unfulfilled, which is suddenly it's like, okay, well, you know, Jerry Seinfeld wrote a book called, Is this anything? It's like, he's like, looking at life, you're going, Is this anything? So I actually, it's funny. In bolta sock, I said, the business model of business is broken. In forever changed. I said, the business model of life is broken. So what do we do? I mean, look at you and me, right? We spend all our lives accumulating wealth, but specifically as speakers living out of a suitcase, traveling the world missing out on our kids growing up on all these moments. And then finally, when we can settle down and enjoy it for them, they're gone. And by the way, oh, they don't want anything to do with us. And so I actually wrote in this book, I said, when we die, right, we should have $1, left to our name, because that would represent as close to a perfect life well lived. So I don't think money is, you know, I think you need enough money. What is enough? Well, it's different for different people, you know, but But you enough money isn't to sustain a life in a McMansion. That's, that's in your that's in your mind. Right. So, so I don't think that that younger consumers now joining companies, younger consumers, younger people, because of how much money they can make, I think they're joining a company where they're going to be fulfilled a company that shares their values. And, and, you know, the thing is, is that they have other priorities in life. You know, it's you good luck trying to get Agenzia to like, work 80 hour weeks, you know, and it's funny because I remember, I actually believe in what I call the silver head, revolutionaries, the silver head visionaries are, you know, us, I believe, right now that the people that will lead the web three revolution are not going to be the 22 year old bros. They're going to be the people that loved pre web one, and then web one, and then web two, and now web three and never enough experience combined with wisdom, and grit and resilience, to be able to say we know how this plays out. We know how you know this. I call it now Groundhog Day in the metaverse so it used to be that when you turn 50 You were basically screwed because there was someone off your age that will work twice as hard. As you for half the pay. Well, it's different now because now there's someone half your age that will work half as hard As you go double what you're earning, so you actually have a little bit of an advantage. Right?

Kenneth Kinney 30:05

Yeah. Well, so let's further that. Talk a little bit about your own web 3.0 story, you reinvented yourself as a marketer with the Alpha collective. Talk a little bit about that.

Joseph Jaffe 30:15

So, so that, you know, for me, the alpha Collective is the ability to, you know, I don't know, like, I know, I know, I've done some little bits of swearing, but how much swearing is okay, on your show? I'll just bleep it out. Okay, so like that.

Kenneth Kinney 30:31

Whether or not my son listens to it by chance,

Joseph Jaffe 30:34

he'll like this. But the tagline for alpha collective was going to be let's not get up again. Because Because it's like, it's Groundhog Day in the metaverse. It's like I've seen the big brands making the same mistakes over and over and over again. And I think web three is too important. I think this strategic vision, right of actually ushering in community capitalism, the mission of alpha Collective is to help onboard the next billion wallets. I believe in shared values, shared ownership, shared rewards. And so in creating this premium community meets conference meets mastermind with 52 keynote speakers over 52 weeks, the safe space where brands can come in and collaborate with creators, with founders with de gens with crypto natives can learn and can make decisions, you know, without what I call now, brand FOMO. Right? Because half the time you've got not half the time, but you've got brands leaping, you know, forward into web three. Why? Because it's a PR play. And it actually tends to backfire, because then all the natives chastise and so yet another clueless brand doing a clueless activation. And then of course, the mainstream media picks up on it all the lazy journalists. And the next thing you know, everyone now is once bitten twice shy, as I've just seen it so many times. You know, the other thing as well, and I might I started a company called crayon, and 15 years ago, 2007 we were in Second Life. We were in the metaverse when the metaverse actually meant something. We did a program for Coca Cola called virtual thirst. The whole idea is Coca Cola world's most loved world's biggest brand, world's most ubiquitous brand. 204 countries, right there, wherever they consume it. So if they're consumers in Second Life, well, then coke needed to be there. So what is coke in the business of quenching thirst? Well, how do you quench your thirst? If you're an avatar in a virtual world? Well, does it have to be quenching a thirst for like, Can What about a thirst for knowledge? What about a thirst for meaning? What about a thirst for connection? You know, so so we actually developed a whole program. But then what happened is a journalist calls me and says, Hey, I'm doing a piece on Second Life. We'd love to profile you. I'm like, That's awesome. And do you think you could introduce us to your co client? I said, Hell yeah, of course I can. Right? So we sit down, I'll never forget it. And the journalist says to me, so can you show me Second Life? I said, but surely you're in Second Life. He was like, No, I've never been in before. I said, but you're doing a whole piece on it. So I show them around. I took them in. Well, it was a complete hatchet sandbag job. The headline of it is, you know, how brands are wasting millions of dollars in a deserted wasteland. Sound familiar? Right? And my poor client got like, exposed in this for being like, you know, the poster child? Well, you know, I braided a piece of video like content this year. And I called it wasted time. And I said, Can you imagine what we could have achieved in the last 15 years if we had trusted ourselves and our consumer and not necessarily, you know, the false prophets and the lazy journalists? And I'll just say like, for what it's worth, you know, if we think about people who are physically impaired, what is what this virtual world this virtual world allows them not only to walk but actually to fly and even teleport? So there are a lot of interesting use cases. And so for me, alpha Collective is always you know, don't look at the finger look at where the fingers pointing. And that's why I think like if we have a chance right now to really deliver against this communal marketing value proposition that I once created in 2004. That's why Alfa collective exists. And and then there are other parts to it as well like IRL events, etc. We do a virtual coffee every morning from eight to nine in discord and anyone listening to your show can come for free. And there's no upsell, there's no in fact, we're doing the free mint at the moment as well. so people can actually get an entry level pause for free into the collective. And they can actually attend all of these 50 to Alpha talks. So there's no catch. There's no bait and switch. This is the new marketing, the new marketing says. And I'll kind of you know, like in clubhouse I'll land with us as well. Could you please lend Joseph, I'm like, a bit of verbal diarrhea. But, you know, one of the most amazing things about the space is that is this idea of like, the whole world has traded, the media world in particular is traded on scarcity. But in this world, there is no scarcity mindset. There's only an abundance mindset. Now, let me give you an interesting application. Alpha collective has 1000 paid courses, and essentially 1000 free minutes. So one might say, But wait a second, what do you mean, an abundance mindset? Well, here that scarcity? No, it's not necessarily because when it sells out, first of all, once you're in the collective, there is an abundance mindset, there is no UPS up charge cross sell, once you're in you're in, there's never another penny that you pay for in your one years membership term, because it's a one year membership term. That's the first thing. The second thing like for example, my time is free in alpha collective. So I am either NFT myself, you cannot transact with me, traditionally, you can only do it through Alpha collective. But here's the thing. There's always a buyer, that's what I learned about the space. So to say, well, I missed out, it's sold out, notice it's sold out. But you can buy a pause on the secondary market, you might pay a little bit more for it, you also might pay a little bit less for it. That's what makes this whole new world so exciting. It's the secondary market. It's the it's a secondary market where the creator is always getting fees in perpetuity. It's a secondary market where readers get royalties, it's a secondary market that says there's always a buyer, there's always room for a buyer, you just might have to pay a little bit more. And so all of this, I hope, I hope that OLFA collective will be a use case in of itself, for any personal brands like myself as a host, or associations, or communities, or masterminds to say this is a working model for us to come together with an abundance mindset and do it in a it doesn't even have to be about web three. So in season one, it's the business of web three. In season two, it might be the business of storytelling, we might completely with members voting, it might be the business of omnichannel. It could be it could be the business of customer experience. And so this will move with the puck, this is the puck moving to where the puck is going to be. And and our members will ultimately choose where we move.

Kenneth Kinney 38:02

So talk real quick about Corona TV and what you're doing there. How many episodes are you on?

Joseph Jaffe 38:07

Yeah, so So I rebranded it now it started off as Corona TV, right? Hope, positivity and optimism in a time of despair. I wanted to poke the bear, right and say, you know, when people were stuck and stuck at home, could I help them? Right? And then I changed it. Ironically, like I launched probably the month I had open heart surgery. But it's now called Joseph Jaffe is not famous. And so my manifested goal

Kenneth Kinney 38:37

You know I knew that. I go to the corona TV link all the time out of habit I've seen I've seen it so much, I just sort of remembered it that way.

Joseph Jaffe 38:44

And the funny the funny thing is, like, it's what we were discussing before, by the way, it's like it actually hurt me even though I came from such a place of love, because I just got shadow banned and and I couldn't promote it because because, you know, the the so called AI algorithms in Google thought that I was trying to exploit a pandemic for my own financial gain. I've never made a penny really out of the show. But but you know, I, I will say to people that are listening, you know, which is I'm manifesting my goal, which is I want to I want to get the show picked up by a CNBC by chedda by a Netflix you know, I really want to share the show. This is my purpose. This is what I was put on this world to do. And so I say to anyone, like call me anyone knows someone all I need is one human being that believes that you know, in a business talk show that doesn't have to be boring. fits my elevator pitch.

Kenneth Kinney 39:48

Great. Well, Joseph asked this of all my guests in specially considering where you you hail from originally. I got to ask what is your favorite kind of shark and why?

Joseph Jaffe 40:00

No sharks are scared of them.

Kenneth Kinney 40:03

They are rather large. I've been diving once there and the water is murky. And it's 12 degrees. It's horrible. It's like It's like California water.

Joseph Jaffe 40:12

I mean, listen, if you're if you're asking me to, like, think on my toes, and I had to like identify real shock, I'd be like, I don't know, the only one I can really remember is the hammerhead shark. I remember from like books, but But I mean, but my real answer, though, you're my favorite shark.

Kenneth Kinney 40:29

Thank you. Well, the great white sharks down in South Africa are amazing.

Joseph Jaffe 40:32

You are the Great White Shark.

Kenneth Kinney 40:32

Yeah but I identify as a hammerhead so well, Joseph, it says,

Joseph Jaffe 40:41

so to a hammerhead everything's a nail.

Kenneth Kinney 40:42

Exactly. Well, it's very Yeah. So Joseph, it's a special time the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today? Or at least until 1030? Eastern. I'm going to do my best. All right. You started off with Jaffe juice is the podcast. So we're going to talk juices, apple juice, or orange juice.

Joseph Jaffe 41:03

For me, I love apple juice. And, and you know, I It's weird, like, I love banana flavored and apple flavored and gray. I love I love fruit flavored candy. Candy in particular.

Kenneth Kinney 41:16

Nice. Alright, number two more beautiful place to visit Johannesburg or Cape Town?

Joseph Jaffe 41:23

It's like, sorry, sorry. Johannesburg is is not. There's nothing. The people, you know, the I had a friend, a good friend from Johannesburg. And he would say, you know, he would say Cape Town, Big Mountain little people. So, you know, the people in Johannesburg. It's like Melbourne to Sydney. But I mean, Cape Town. Cape Town is seriously one of the most beautiful beautiful cities in the world. And I've been to many.

Kenneth Kinney 41:51

Alright, number four.

Joseph Jaffe 41:53

Was that?

Kenneth Kinney 41:55

Oh sorry, number three. Number three.

Joseph Jaffe 41:57

I want number three. Don't cheat me out of number three.

Kenneth Kinney 42:00

No, no, no. Two of the social media platforms that jumped out during the pandemic. Tik Tok TOC or clubhouse?

Joseph Jaffe 42:10

So, such a good question. I mean, the the one that clearly one is tick tock. I mean, you know, the one that that has been a clubhouse is still just a will be like, unfortunately, a little footnote that no one will remember. It's it's a great case study in how to completely screw up the you know, in my presentation yesterday, I said if you gave marketers the goose that laid the golden egg, they'd slaughter it and cook it on the grill. That's what happened with clubhouse. The goose that laid the golden egg was the pandemic and they somehow weren't able to, like how much of a head start Do you want? And do you need in terms of the power of audio? I mean, this is a podcast audio is amazing, but it was before and it will be afterwards. But yeah, I mean, I choose your I don't tick tock is just I don't use it. from a b2b standpoint. I should probably and there are many people that are doing amazing things with tick tock, but it's it's these are easy questions, because they're not even close. Make them hide

Kenneth Kinney 43:22

Clubhouse is the MySpace of this generation. So it's obscurity quickly. Alright, number four, Superman, or Captain Marvel, who wins a fight?

Joseph Jaffe 43:36

I mean, so that I mean, that's a great question. Now. I am a DC Comics guy always was as a kid growing up. And so from a marketing standpoint, Marvel kicks, DCS but but you know, they do

Kenneth Kinney 43:53

today. 2030 years ago, it was DC. Yeah. Yeah. And

Joseph Jaffe 43:57

you know, you know, what's interesting is not a lot of people know this, but marvel as a company almost went out of business. So it's a it's a great case study in of itself in terms of heresy, and also in terms of survival and disruption, etc. and risk and taking risks. But I have to always say like, you know, the ultimate is, you know, Superman is Superman, you know, I mean, I know there's the whole kryptonite thing and everything but he's, you know, he's Superman. He's died and come back to life. That's how powerful is any Commandant

Kenneth Kinney 44:28

Agreed. Alright, number five and the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread?

Joseph Jaffe 44:35

So I don't even know how to answer that question. Because like, because the the American version of a biscuit is not what is less like a SCON? Or is that a scone much better than a scone? I'm going with neither because I'm doing intermittent fasting at the moment and trying to eliminate carbs.

Kenneth Kinney 44:52

If it was your last meal on Earth, and you had a carb choice, would you choose biscuits or cornbread American biscuits?

Joseph Jaffe 44:59

Um, I'm going to choose South African Baroque horse, which is meat, you know, like I'm getting I'm going to completely sabotage your question.

Kenneth Kinney 45:09

First person who's refused us. 300 episodes plus episodes.

Joseph Jaffe 45:15

You see, but you know, I'll tell you, I'll tell you I sometimes talk about like, I call it the death row meal, like, you're on death row. And you've been asked to hear this is your final meal. So it's for me, it's just strings of South African sausage, Bura voice voices, sausage and Afrikaans and the Biewer is the you know, is the format. So it's the farmers sausage. It's spicy, yummy sausage, with cornbread and biscuits. How about that?

Kenneth Kinney 45:44

That's, well, you eat too much of that and you're gonna need another heart procedure. So

Joseph Jaffe 45:49

well, yeah, exactly. I'm on death row. So I'm gonna go with both, either to both.

Kenneth Kinney 45:54

Alright, well, Joseph, where can people find out more about you get a copy of this new book and the old old ones and keep up with what you're doing in thought leadership and speaking and more?

Joseph Jaffe 46:03

It's funny, because yesterday in the presentation, I didn't end my presentation with with any contact details at all. This is how much it's just a follow up speech here. So I just said, I said, you know, I heard recently that when people have hate, they're living in the past, when people have fear. They're living in the future. When people are peace, they're living in the present, they're present. And so I just ended by saying thank you for your presence today. The other thing that I've realized in some of my virtual keynotes is none of my contact details are BP details anymore, like email my speaker website. So now I'm giving away I'm saying this is, I guess the closest to web two is my show. I was like, please just subscribe to Joseph Jaffe is not famous on YouTube. But but now I just tell people to to meet me in discord. So I would say the number one thing that I would ask people to do, actually, there are three things one is, is give the show listen. And if you like it, subscribe. Number two is come into discord.gg forward slash Alpha collective, come into the discord, introduce yourself and attend one of our Monday through Friday at 9am. Eastern coffees, it's really a positive way to start the day. And, and take advantage of either the free or the paid, meant and be a part of this, what I think will be a very, very valuable and special and, and, you know in powerful community, and I don't and if all else fails, just google me, I'm pretty much Jaffe juice on every platform.

Kenneth Kinney 47:48

Alright, thank you very much shows up for being with us today on a shark's perspective.

Joseph Jaffe 47:52

I, you know, I'm glad I didn't get eaten by the shark today.

[music]

Kenneth Kinney 48:00

So that was my conversation with Joseph Jaffe, a talk show host, a consultant, speaker, author of “Built to Suck: The Inevitable Demise of the Corporation...and How to Save It?” and his newest “Forever Changed”. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with him.

Kenneth Kinney 48:15

First, I don't agree with Joseph on a lot of things. But I love his perspective. And it challenges people even me to think much differently. His own view of the world coming from South Africa helps that immensely. And as I too have traveled the world, and as well as lived overseas multiple times, I can tell you that doing so will help you expand your thinking, especially when you get out of that circle, get out of the bubble. It doesn't mean that what you previously may have thought is necessarily right or wrong on any subject. But it should help you see things through the lens of how others may see you your brand, or your view of the world, for your own education. Get outside of that box outside of that circle as much as you can. And by the way, getting outside of this country helped me realize how much more so that this is truly the greatest place in the world to live flaws in all.

Kenneth Kinney 49:02

Second, honestly, I just loved talking about life with Joseph, what an amazing gift he's been given wrapping paper suck with a heart scare infections, COVID and more. But look at his amazing view on life. Today. It's such a reminder, don't wait until a heart issue or a pandemic or January 1 to start a diet or a day in the future to start anything. Calendars don't matter getting off your butt to do it is What does start today and put a pin on the calendar with less looking forward to something and more moving forward to that something.

Kenneth Kinney 49:34

Third, I really love the whole message in his book built to suck is Joseph says with size and scale come suckage What a sad goal with the key to success being to suck less. Yep, that's where we are with many large corporations today that are frankly too big to succeed. He says they should disrupt the sect or dissolve and if your company grows to where it creates more problems for consumers than solves, well then you're just Built to Suck.

Kenneth Kinney 50:01

Got a question, send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective.com.

Kenneth Kinney 50:05

Thank you again for the privilege of your time. And I am so thankful to everyone who listens.

Kenneth Kinney 50:09

Love his closing remarks and I'll end it with that reminder. "When people have hate they're living in the past, when people have fear they're living in the future. When people have peace, they're living in the present. Thank you for your presence today."

Kenneth Kinney 50:22

Thank you everyone and join us on the next episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)