****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

Andre Roux 0:00

Hi, I'm Andre roux and you're listening to A Shark's Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)

Kenneth Kinney 0:19

Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective.

Kenneth Kinney 0:22

I am Kenneth Kinney, but friends call me "Shark". I'm a keynote speaker, a strategist, a shark diver, host of this show and your Chief Shark Officer.

Kenneth Kinney 0:31

Data-driven TV is starting to get its mojo on. It's come a long way from just a few years ago, when many pioneers like me were busy evangelizing addressable TV. And so as today's guest who I've had the pleasure of working with on hundreds of addressable TV campaigns, and what was considered pioneer country then is moving forward with exciting opportunities to connect many more data driven advertising capabilities for brands. Even more, though is to consider that the currency of measurement in a world where billions of dollars of advertising occurs is changing.

Kenneth Kinney 1:05

Andre Roux is a data sales executive at Experian, and has an extensive background in the TV industry, working in data operations, analytics and sales for companies like Experian NBCU, DirecTV, Turner, and ABC Disney.

Kenneth Kinney 1:19

And on this episode, we'll discuss data-driven marketing and advertising addressable TV, connected TV, the convergence of TV and digital marketing, myths about that convergence, measurement reach frequency, looking at TV from various perspectives, how data plays a role with agencies buying data companies, GRPs, MRCs, swimming of sharks on your honeymoon, types of French cuisine, who wins a huge wrestling match, and a lot, lot more.

Kenneth Kinney 1:44

So let's tune into two addressable TV pioneers Andre and yours truly, Mr. Shark on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

[intro music]

Kenneth Kinney 1:56

Andre, welcome to A Shark's Perspective. We just met we've never worked together or you've never yelled at me for anything. But would you give us a brief overview of your background and your career to date?

Andre Roux 2:06

never yelled at you maybe this week?

Kenneth Kinney 2:09

years ago? Yes.

Andre Roux 2:12

So I originally started in Spa television about two decades ago, from there moved on to ABC, where I got introduced not only to you know, their local owned and operated networks, but also the the online side of the business as it was starting to grow for them. So I did a lot of web analytics for them, moved over to ABC Family, where again, very deep in web analytics. And then after that, went to CNN for brief stop, and then got involved with the launch of addressable television, with DIRECTV worked there for about three years, and then moved on to NBC Universal, where we launched their data driven approach and worked with a lot of their data driven Advanced Television products.

Kenneth Kinney 3:01

seems small world because when you were in on the DIRECTV side, I was on the big data side. Now here you are on the big data side. So we've come full circle, it gives you a really unique perspective to addressable targeting and TV and so forth. So let's talk a little bit about TV and digital. Today, it's a great topic to talk about a little bit about the convergence to you're a well known person in this industry, especially the TV space. We've known a lot of some superstars in that space as well. Where do you see the convergence of TV and digital marketing today?

Andre Roux 3:31

Yeah, so I think that, you know, TV and digital definitely is, is starting to come together. You know, traditionally, it's been a blocker that digital has been done differently than how TV is in TVs currently kind of starting to work their way back, or work their way into that means of handling ads and handling data and being able to kind of deliver messaging and appropriate terms. From a perspective of, you know, the big picture, we have, you know, a lot more data driven linear work happening. And I think that it's important to bring in that data targeting, to get past the traditional means of measurement, traditional means of kind of counting and understanding what's happening in the media space. You know, digital is always been done on impressions. And I think TV starting to kind of hit that tipping point where they're moving from your do your Nielsen GRPs and ratings into something that's a little bit more, you know, impression based and data data driven to to get at that. So

Kenneth Kinney 4:36

well, when you say that I think to several years ago when we work as partners on a lot of these campaigns. A lot of the big boys and girls were already doing a convergence when you say it's starting to come together. Do you feel like it's in the masses, it's starting to come together? Because I know a lot of the great big boys and girls were already testing this heavily because I was part of managing those campaigns, but are you seeing it just being more pervasive throughout about the industry.

Andre Roux 5:01

Yeah, it's definitely starting to kind of populate more into the, you know, the every day, right. So the retail at some point in time, yeah, at some point in time you had, you know, digital being bought by a different shop at a different agency than the TV. And then it turned into this kind of battle about like, who's whose money is going where right now, it's kind of like the publishers have gotten to the place where they, they're putting their content everywhere that they can in order to get people to start watching it, and start consuming it right. And so as as that continues to grow, you know, the means under which you're buying those things is important. Data driven linear, to me, at least is one of those means of kind of getting out there and building scale really quick, and then layering us that layer cake approach as to how to kind of get to that next level of getting reach. So it's, you know, you're layering on your addressability, you're layering on your digital, your mobile, your CTV, all that kind of comes together to build your scale, whether it's, you know, reaches your objective or frequency, you know, and I think the two of those kind of go hand in hand where reach out to, you have to have a certain amount of reach. But if you're only reaching people with one ad, that's not as effective, right? So you want to make sure that you're kind of getting that right amount of scale. And that right amount of hitting the correct audience, as opposed to just kind of spray and pray approach.

Kenneth Kinney 6:28

If we think back to just a few years ago, it was, especially in addressable TV, it was really sort of a set top box, mainly conversation. And then as these teams were battling out who was going to do the buying between digital versus TV, it all of a sudden became popular when it was connected TV and you know, not delivered through a satellite dish and went to an iPad instead. But I'm kind of curious, what do you think is a myth to you and what is not part of the convergence? Because you were just talking about something before we went on about how much money is still going into a lot of broadcast TV, there's a lot of people that think that nothing's being done in in traditional broadcast TV, but there's a ton of money that's still going in there. Yeah, there is a decline. But if you read most of the emails out there, or a lot of the pieces out there connected TV would be the only thing in existence today, and all the traditional channels would have died off 10 years ago, like the dinosaurs.

Andre Roux 7:22

Yeah, you know, it's funny, when I first started my career, there was that whole, somebody told me there's, you know, you're selling the sizzle, you're not selling the steak, right. And a lot of CTV right now, is is big. And it's important, and it's, I think it's expanding, it's a, it's a platform that that's not kind of ready to compress just quite yet. But, you know, I liken back to like, the late 90s, where there was all these cable channels popping up and like, you know, there was MTV two, and MTV three, and like, beach, one, two, and, you know, there was this, this kind of, like explosion of, of content that was available. And then it started to kind of like, compress again, right. And so, broadcast is still a big chunk of the publishing money that's out there. Now, people tune in to the shows that are still on TV, you know, it's your, your, your ABCs, your NBCs, your foxes, your cbs, right? So there's a lot of money that's being being spent being made. content that's being consumed, like, it's, yeah, people are saying, and it's going away, but like, it's, it's not dying 123, it's slowly kind of finding its, it's the right size, I don't think it's ever going to just disappear, right. And those prevailing platforms that are out there are going to start to kind of take their own place in the world as far as how they deliver content. You know, I honestly have a belief that all of the apps that are out there are going to have to start to come together in one place. Because consumers are going to push it there. And then, you know, if you're paying $3 A month here, and $4 a month there and $10 a month tear, and then it all the sudden turns it into like, hey, that cable cord that I cut is actually just being redistributed to all these different services, right. So but I think what's important there is that convergence sell of like ads are going to be supporting some of this stuff. So that way you're not dealing with, you know, I'm buying this content on this app for $50. It's going to turn into that like, hey, you know, we'll add support it, and we'll make it you know, digestible for the end user.

Kenneth Kinney 9:39

Well, you did forget ESPN, the outro. The outro. Absolutely. Okay. So you're you're working for Experian today. How does data play a role in this convergence, especially with third party data that your team is working with?

Andre Roux 9:54

Yeah, so I left that out of my intro, but I am currently working with experience doing data sales for them. And I think it's gonna start to proliferate a lot of the not only linear spending advanced TV spending, which is where it's always been, and then also the digital side of the house. And so with, you know, the profile of the person and the data that we're able to collect about the every, you know, every household that's out there, I think that ability to kind of do that convergence and go after that target, regardless of what platform they're on. Regardless of, you know, the content that they're consuming, is important, because then you're now getting ads in front of people in the right way. In the devices that they're consuming information and programming on and content on, and you're doing it in a way that's, that's more relevant. And that's the, the whole promise of advanced advertising is, you know, we're not sending you ads for stuff that you're not interested in, we're sending you stuff that it's relevant. And, you know, it's it makes it all trackable. It makes it all, you know, from a, from an advertiser perspective, it makes it more impactful, you get to see, you know, that that linkage between I bought X amount of impressions and sold Y amount of product. Back in the day, when it was like, hey, TV is TV, and I bought 18 to 49. And that's gonna get me all these impressions. Yes, those impressions were delivered. But the problem is, there's no linkage between like, did they drive you to go and purchase things outside of, you know, the kind of hope that it was impactful, and people saw the ad, and did what it is that you asked him to do. So I think that that plays into, you know, kind of the currency of the space, and how, you know, media buying is going to be impacted, as well as you know, how advertisers go about doing their advertising.

Kenneth Kinney 11:59

Well, let's talk a little bit about measurement, especially for driving performance. And I know we've talked about this before about Nielsen, it was two or three days ago, I was sitting with somebody that worked at an agency who brought up Nielsen as a standard for them. And I was kind of surprised it was a small agency, but one that had a healthy number of clients. And I was interested to see how many people still think about measurement with the older forms of measurement that they know at the retail level, but that currency, if you will, as you've described, it is changing. Elaborate, if you will, a little bit on how measurements changing.

Andre Roux 12:29

Yeah, from, from my perspective, being at networks that had a strong basis in in how Nielsen rank them and perform them and all that information, like it was kind of the one currency to rule them all. And it was kind of the the thing that was getting the most amount of scrutiny. Because again, as I mentioned, there are billions of dollars being spent in broadcast television. And so that changed when Nielsen lost their MRC accreditation, and I think that the, you know, the sea change was happening well before that. But the thing that you got to be aware of is that agencies have also kind of convinced all of their clients that they need to have X amount of GRPs. And they've kind of fed them this Nielsen. You know, as as the the end all be all for the longest time. So now we're kind of faced with that, or things are starting to change information starting to kind of flow in different directions, that that ability to kind of go deeper and get more granular and more refined is starting to proliferate out in the in the marketplace. And so that that dependency on Nielsen starting to kind of fade away, and other forms of currency are popping up. You know, the big complaint that everybody's had against Nielsen for the longest time is it's all panel based and small panel based. And now we're we're getting to a place where things are coming through in a census. And, and we're kind of taking digital and we're matching and merging that with, you know, some of the TV data that we're getting from set top boxes or from Ott, Ott, services, and Mitch mixing that all together to come up with that correct media model. It's now changing the face of what it is that campaigns are getting kind of guaranteed on right, that 18 to 49 is wonderful, but let's see what else is happening for my advertiser. Right? So a lot of these agencies have bought data companies. You know, these data companies provide value and one of the values that they're actually starting to help with is like, alright, you know, find me people who are in the market for a product. And then let's see, not only how many GRPs we were able to get, but also how much how many impressions were delivered to those households that were in the market. So that concept of like a secondary guarantees is starting to play into some of the, you know, some of the buyers that are out there and some of them mindsets of how people are seeing that transition from GRPs to actual impressions for a product or for a service.

Kenneth Kinney 15:09

And just to let listeners know, MRC was the media ratings council that happened in 2021, which wasn't that long ago, they lost the accreditation. But I'm curious for you, you know, you've gone from one of the mvpds. Now to one of the you work with DIRECTV work with NBCU on the programming side, and now you're on the data side, how has your perspective changed with TV and digital that maybe has evolved? Is there anything that you thought you knew, and with DIRECTV that now you learned on the data side, you're like, Oh, I like this a lot differently.

Andre Roux 15:42

Not so much looking at it differently. But I think that the it's the advanced TV and the data driven space is starting to get it's, it's Mojo on you know, we were kind of pioneering stuff at DirecTV when it came to, and dish and, and, and Comcast, were all kind of like coming out of the gate saying, Hey, we can do this addressable thing. All we need is xy and z. And so starting to see that, at its infancy, you know, come of age, is where I'm getting more excited. You know, we used to have to be out there evangelizing the data, and evangelizing you know, the ability and the targeting capabilities and all that stuff. And now, it's not so much evangelizing we actually have clients that are coming to us. And they're like, Alright, how do we, how do we take it to that level? How do we take it to that next level, right. And so again, this is where the convergence is coming in, being able to kind of speak to the stuff not only on the, you know, the box on the wall, but the phone in your hand, and the you know, CTV device that I have hanging off my receiver, right? Like, all of that stuff is, is now part of the fabric of where we're helping our clients advertise and helping our clients kind of get the right audience and get out there and get in front of it. So that's kind of changed where it's, you know, we used to have to be out there and be like, Yeah, going after data driven campaigns is a big deal. Now, it's the advertisers and the agencies are coming to us. And they're like, hey, you know, how do we do this better? How do we get across the different devices?

Kenneth Kinney 17:28

So I think that just means they listen to us?

Andre Roux 17:31

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. They're, they're drinking the Kool Aid now. Now they are, they've realized,

Kenneth Kinney 17:39

experience, still independent, but a lot of the large agencies bought data companies over the last several years. And this provided a new a different set of values for them as well elaborate, if you will, a little bit about how you see agencies playing a different part in this mix.

Andre Roux 17:53

Yeah, so I think the agencies have kind of come on board with that whole concept of, you know, 18, to 49, there's just a number of, you know, an age group and age bracket, that pretty much is like everybody in the country, right? Their clients are actually forcing them to get more succinct with their messaging succinct with how it is that they go out into the marketplace. A lot of these clients have their own CRM, their own databases, their own ability to kind of collect information on their customers, and they want to start putting that to use, the agencies now starting to buy data companies, I think plays into that in the ability to, you know, go deeper with not only with their campaigns, but also with their analysis of what's kind of happening, how it is that they're driving sales for their clients. And I think that, you know, as as, as more of this starts to occur, we're making the buy smarter, we're making you know, our clients happier by having that data driven approach, and getting to the people who are in the market for whatever the product is, whether it's goods or services.

Kenneth Kinney 19:07

What do you see for the near to medium future for this convergence, leveraging data across TV and digital channels?

Andre Roux 19:15

I think it's going to start to change the metrics under which campaigns are being bought and sold on. You know, we're seeing some of this with secondary guarantees. Some, some clients are asking for, especially ones who own a data agency or a data, data assets. They want to know, you know, not just how to how many GRPs were we able to put out into the marketplace, they're also starting to ask questions of, how do we get that, you know, how do we know how many impressions were served for people in the market for say golf clubs or a car, whatever it is, right? So that secondary guarantee, I think is playing into, into things a bit. You know, it also plays in, think a bit further into Some of the some of the measurement that can be done after a campaign is run. So

Kenneth Kinney 20:06

should we be looking at reach and frequency any differently?

Andre Roux 20:10

Yeah, I think that, you know, reach and frequency. For the longest time, you know, reach and frequency was one of those things where everyone was out there banging the drum about we need to reach more people and we need to hit them and all these different platforms, right still do. They still do. And it's looks important, I get it. But I think frequency plays a big role in that, too. If I see an ad one time, I'm not going to be compelled to buy it. Nobody really kind of thinks that way. Right? It's it's a matter of kind of getting the right reach and the right frequency. We're godless of where those eyeballs are. So I think that reach frequency is going to start to become another metric to that, that some advertisers are coming along. And they're saying, all right, I want to pay for X amount of impressions against Y amount of eyeballs. And anything that spills over is not something that I'm going to get to give a lot of money towards.

Kenneth Kinney 21:08

I'm always amazed when when I hear people talk about targeting, and then they want to go spray it and throw as much spaghetti on the wrong wall. Just because they think there's there's more to put out there. That's a horrible analogy. But But that's, that's no, no,

Andre Roux 21:22

it's that's, that's spray and pray, you know, mindset is, I get where it's coming from. And I understand, you know, how the how the math works on that, because, you know, the way that they see it is they're offsetting the cost of getting to those households who are truly in the market for something with kind of planting that seed down the road for someone who may be in the market for it, right. So you know, I'm in the market for a car and then three years from now, I'm not going to be in the market for a car. But if I'm not in the market for a car, and you're planting that seed, for when I am back in the market, I get that concept of like, you know, you're kind of you're you're building it, you're building a base, and then you want to kind of go from there and grow it. I just think that that reached play of just blast it out. And see what sticks is, is is good for laying a base, but it's not good for trying to drive the Lower, lower end conversion metrics.

Kenneth Kinney 22:23

Well, and if you're actually on the performance side, you got to understand that if you're throwing a bunch of seeds to stay there, and you throw them out into the desert, because there's more space, yep, if you're not measuring what that tree looks like, in three years, or 10 years, or whatever the tail of your advertising is, you may end up with a tiny cactus are a succulent, as opposed to a big willow tree, you know, or something like that. And that's unfortunately, where a lot of folks are with their views on whether or not their ads even work.

Andre Roux 22:53

Absolutely. And that's why I think that the data driven approach has to has to play a big role in how you spend some of those ad dollars, right. So, you know, you want to kind of lay a base, but then on top of that, you want to get those targeted ads in there. And that's, that's where the data kind of comes in and plays a role not only just for, hey, let's get a message out to the right people. But then hey, you know what happened with that campaign? Did that campaign sell more carts? Did that campaign drive more traffic to your store? Did it get you to get more people calling up and buying products, right? And then from there, you do the analysis, and it leads back into that targeting, so you end up with that lifecycle of an ad, kind of be in being important for how you approach your next campaign. And that's something that I see as being you know, paramount for the advertisers on the other side, they need to kind of get the right ads, you know, even creative into the right hands at the right time. And then analyze it and then go back and do it all over again.

Kenneth Kinney 24:01

The moral of the story is don't throw tree seats in the desert. So Andre is this of all my guests. What is your favorite kind of shark and why?

Andre Roux 24:12

Favorite kind of shark....

Kenneth Kinney 24:14

Tapping on those French roots I'll say what is your favorite kind of Tiburon?

Andre Roux 24:21

I actually got that. I think we've talked about this I actually got to swim with sharks on my honeymoon. So I'm gonna say the lemon shark because I actually got to touch one of those guys up close and personal so...

Kenneth Kinney 24:34

Awesome. Well, Andre, it's a special time the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions you're going to be asked today? Absolutely. All right, number one, OTT or CTV?

Andre Roux 24:49

It's OTT to me.

Kenneth Kinney 24:50

Why so?

Andre Roux 24:52

it's just over the top television so it's not a not a setup box but a a dongle that hangs off the back.

Kenneth Kinney 25:02

Alright, number two with that French heritage. Let's talk a little roux.

Andre Roux 25:06

Canadian action.

Kenneth Kinney 25:08

Canadian, French, that's okay. Would you rather have traditional French food or Cajun food?

Andre Roux 25:14

Cajun food. I'm all about the spice.

Kenneth Kinney 25:16

There you go. All right. Number three, you're watching a show that was on yesterday. Would you rather watch it on your set top box or through a streaming service?

Andre Roux 25:29

Set that box all the way. To me that box on the wall is the big camera in your face production that you want to see. And I've found that on demand is never my number, my cup of tea.

Kenneth Kinney 25:44

The functionality is not there yet.

Andre Roux 25:46

So well. That's the thing, right? So so conceptually being able to kind of pick up the remote control and just watch something as opposed to like flipping through 57 menus, just find the program that I'm trying to watch. And then from there not being able to fast forward if I've already seen like, unfortunate so it's relevant because the other day we were watching something and my DVR crapped out on the recording, so I had to go and watch it on demand. And in doing so, I couldn't fast forward so I had to like watch the whole show again, which was not Yeah.

Kenneth Kinney 26:18

Number four. Knowing that you are Andre the TV giant. I'm gonna ask you a wrestling question here. Who wins in a real fight? The Rock or John Cena?

Andre Roux 26:32

Oh, the Rock. Definitely the Rock, he's....

Kenneth Kinney 26:35

You're supposed to say John Cena because he's using Experian data. And he appears on the Experian TV commercials.

Andre Roux 26:43

Yes, but I can't I can't tell that. I can't tow the company lied on that one. I had the

Kenneth Kinney 26:49

Black Adam's gonna win that one all day long. So. Alright, number five. And the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread?

Andre Roux 26:58

Cornbread. Can't go wrong cornbread. Okay. Especially with some barbecue pork and bread. Oh, yeah.

Kenneth Kinney 27:06

I just had it. Not last weekend, but the weekend before. So Andre, where can people find out more about you keep up with what you're doing in the industry and more.

Andre Roux 27:15

You got me on LinkedIn. And if anyone wants to reach out and hit me at andre.roux@experian.com.

Kenneth Kinney 27:21

Awesome. Thank you so much Andre for being with us today on A Shark's Perspective.

Andre Roux 27:26

Thank you.

[music]

Kenneth Kinney 27:32

So there was my conversation with Andre Roux, a data sales executive at Experian who has an extensive background in the TV industry working in data operations, analytics and sales for companies like experience NBCU, DirecTV, Turner and ABC Disney. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with him.

Kenneth Kinney 27:51

First love when he said that data driven TV is starting to get its mojo on it was in its infancy. And now it's really coming of age dating back to my first episode of this show. Even it was almost all evangelizing. Now we're talking about it and taking it to the next level. And that's a great thing. More people are starting to think about and realize that you can go across devices a lot more. But remember, it's also important that there's still so much more to be done. And just looking at TV, like you would measure other digital channels isn't the only answer. Be curious about what is capable.

Kenneth Kinney 28:25

Second, connected TV is the future. It's got all the momentum. But do not forget some of the more traditional TV advertising that still rules. broadcast TV is still a major player, not everyone is watching everything streamed. As he said, Though each medium is starting to find its own right size. Where you can help brands is to really understand this whole landscape and help them see the full scope of TV advertising. And not just what you can push only to a device or a streaming only service. Point is it's not just putting the ad on the hottest flavored medium, you've got to simply focus on getting the ads in front of people the right way, and letting the data drive that buying decision. Go beyond just what you've heard. Be fearless in your targeting and advertising.

Kenneth Kinney 29:07

Third, measurement is so key here. It was important when I worked with Andre previously, to measure in a certain way, going beyond traditional Nielsen is something that many of us did years ago, but that currency a measurement, roll them all as he said sometimes now with the changes. It feels like Bitcoin that isn't mapped to any gold standard. If you know what I mean. You go deeper in measurement. Andre and I have for years go much deeper than panel based measurement or reach frequency stats, dive deeper with the data to build your campaigns, and lay that as a base of your TV measurement based on what you buy or sold. Tying this part of the journey back to sales makes CMOs and CFOs happy. So dive deeper. Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective.com.

Kenneth Kinney 29:50

Thank you again for the privilege of your time, and I'm so thankful to everyone who listens.

Kenneth Kinney 29:54

Please consider writing a review and letting me know your thoughts on the show.

Kenneth Kinney 29:58

And yes, I too think that the Rock beats John Cena. Black Adam versus Peacemaker? I mean, come on, but we'll have to discuss that further when you join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)