Transcription
****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

[intro music]
Shark 0:16
Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, your host and Chief Shark Officer.

Shark 0:22
First, let me tell you about our amazing sponsor who helps make this show possible. I hope that you'll take a look at Drips, the founders of conversational texting where they use conversational AI to help you reach customers where they're most responsive, and that's on their phones. And working with major brands like Three Day Blinds, Liberty Mutual, Credit Repair, and Gainesco, Drips is leading the way for some of the biggest brands in the world to improve engagement rates and outcomes for their prospects and customers.

Shark 0:46
And now back to the show.

Shark 0:48
Is the customer journey linear, more often than not, it is not, especially when considering all of the noise and touchpoints and absent channels, it likely never was. But that was often the mindset that existed for so many when looking at data. And a lot of that siloed mindset is carried over. But was the customer journey really ever linear. That some of what we're going to discuss today, and how marketers and brands and agencies can look at omni channel more effectively today and going forward.

Shark 1:15
Sandra Abi-Rashid is the VP, Client Services at Digilent, the GM at Happyfication, and the co founder of Mentoro.

Shark 1:22
And on this episode, we'll discuss whether the customer journey was ever really linear, what it is today, breaking down silos wearing different hats to make data driven decisions, leveraging data points, content strategies, advertising and media ads for brands and agencies, mentoring the youth, leopards and fashion, popsicles and a lot lot more.

Shark 1:41
So let's tune into an omni channel digital marketer with an omni channel shark on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

Shark 1:52
Sandra, thank you so much for joining us today on A Shark's Perspective. Tell us a little bit about your journey, your story and career to date.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 1:59
Yeah, thanks so much. I'm so happy to be here. So I have about 20 plus years experience in digital business publishing side data analytics, and obviously a media Omni media marketing on both the client, the agency side and the media side. I've worked in the startup space, I've worked for a CPG brands such as L'Oreal and I currently work for digital and as a VP client services.

Shark 2:30
So let's talk start off about customer journey. How have you seen that change over the years and what's leading us up to where we are today?

Sandra Abi-Rashed 2:39
So I think, you know, typically, I think marketers still like to see the journey as something that's linear. And I'm sure you've seen this Kenneth, you know, when they want to show it, they show the upside down triangle. And they say, you know, like, there's the awareness, and then there's engagement, and then there's conversion and they love to see the the numbers and the percentages, and as they move from box to box, and I and I think that's just something that stuck with the traditional marketing philosophy as a as a very linear journey, right. But then if we really, really stopped to think about how people react to brands or to products, or how they consume products or media, the journey isn't linear, you know, where we, we, you know, Google talks about moments, moments that matter. But what really fundamentally happens, and I know because it happened to me the other day is you know, you're on Instagram and then you see an ad that's targeted to you and then you shut it down, then you go to search and then you see it on Google and then two seconds later you're on your you know, you're ordering it you don't even know your face recognition comes in and then the next day you're like stand up desk arrives like that the journey isn't as linear as it used to be. And we're exposed to so many different touchpoints and so many different channels. I do think that the journey can be linear for big ticket items, you know, like cars and things like that. But I think more often than not we're we've trained our minds I think, in theory to focus on a funnel but the the drives people to think that the journey is actually linear when it's absolutely not anymore. I don't know if that makes sense.

Shark 4:22
Yeah, did I think one of the things though, that said call it push back more about push into is I don't know that the journey was ever linear. We just had more data points to maybe help develop the idea of a funnel that way without necessarily you know, calling out the four Ps or something with past thinking but yeah, the idea that anybody is looking at any one channel anymore unless it's for a $5 makeup brush. I don't even know what a makeup brush will cost. What is the makeup brush cost 20 could be could be five to 25 to 35 to $25 makeup brush for something like that on Instagram. You can click through by Boom, and it's done. Yeah, that happens all the time we're not doing I wouldn't think that, well, I'm gonna have to ask my wife. Now, I can't imagine that people are doing that much research on buying something that simple but great completely the journeys not linear, because you're seeing so many different traffic sources in the way, especially with now how we programmatically buy a lot of this media. Today, it's on so many different channels. And that's just the ones that we know of not even including the non trackable billboards that are still used and still convert a lot of TV ads that are data driven linear, but not all of them are trackable the same way.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 5:35
I mean, absolutely. How many times have you been in a car and then you see the out of home? And you look up on Google, and then you search for it? Or? But you know, I love what you said, you know, there is pushback? And was the journey ever linear. And I think when we had less touchpoints, when it was about direct marketing, when you did have one way and it was TV, I think it was more linear than it is today. True. So yeah,

Shark 5:58
so let's set up first, then how we look at silos as part of that journey, what are silos to you, and what you see with the brands you work with today.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 6:09
So my definition of silo, and you mentioned it are on both sides. So there's there are silos that exist on the on the brand side, so within a brand name, if we take a CPG company as a as an example. Very often they have teams that are responsible for social and another team that does traditional TV linear and another team that's doing communications and under communications, they're bundling a different part of social, and then another team that's doing data analytics. So the way the the way the the media performance is analyzed is in silos and not in a holistic, a holistic approach, where you can bring the performance to a common currency and be able to compare a video to a TV ad to a an out of home to digital. So there are I mean, that's a that's a fact there are still silos that exist within the the the actual companies, organizations,

Shark 7:12
and that's just on if they spend media dollars, you know, that's the other problem is, then you're starting to think about how do we stitch together webs? And how did a blog perform? And maybe they came back a month later from something and they cleared out their cookies, and they go back and look at your site?

Sandra Abi-Rashed 7:29
Absolutely, absolutely. So then, you know, you've got we can add on ecommerce and how they're behaving there? And are they buying in store and per retailer and the retailer store your store? So you're right, I think when I'm talking about silos and isolating the media part, good point. And then if we look at the media landscape, also, you know, it is it is silos it it has been and it is even more so with vertical integration. And, you know, take Disney as an example or telcos, you know, you can go there and they'll say, you know, we can offer you everything, from the TV to the ad to the digital to the mobile, and if they don't have a mobile Attack, attack, no. telco, telco partner, then they'll find one. So you've got these vertically integrated silos, you know, Google Facebook same. And then what happens is, you've got a silo on this side, a silo on this side. And then if you look at it, the agency business is very often brand we'll have we have one agency that does social, and we have another agency that does traditional, and then another agency that does this. And sometimes we'll find that we can work collaboratively to come together and have a holistic view. But you know, kind of, you know, it's tough. When, you know, you're you know, everyone's

Shark 8:50
emphasis is work. Yeah, you had me at sometimes.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 8:54
Yeah, right. So, so all of this coexists. And the challenge, I think, is, how do you make sense of it all? Because the silos do exist. And then, you know, you can't break it all up, but how do you make sense of it all in a, with a methodology, or a sometimes a technology, or even the people that that have a holistic view that has, you know, like you like, a traditional background, but also digital background, but also business background? You know, so it's, um, data. So it's how do you tie it all together? You know, and we're jumping into another topic, but they, you know, McKenzie used to call that business translators, how do you get people who can actually translate all of that and tie it in a nice bow, so that we can one understand it, to execute on it, and then report on it and then be able to make it actionable in a business sense.

Shark 9:54
So what is your advice on how they get there? How can a marketer listening this today start breaking down silos, at least on the media side. Yeah. So I think, you know, how do we get them past sometimes?

Sandra Abi-Rashed 10:08
So I, I do think that there isn't there, there's one solution, I'd love to talk about, you know, something that's fundamentally linked to data, because I think it's important. And I think that's the part that most brands skip, you know, saying, Okay, what do we what do we have today? You know, what do we have access today in these silos that could help us better understand our consumer? And what I mean by that is, you know, oftentimes, brands will say, Oh, we don't have anything, and then we'll start digging, say, Well, do you have Google Analytics? Okay, check. You've got that. Okay. Your Facebook account? Check. You've got that? Do you have any surveys? Yeah, we have that. Okay, perfect. So in addition to that, there, there, there's, there's the option to explore what we call declarative data. And, you know, this is something that you've heard about before. And you know, there there are a number of different sources, and Nielsen, GWI. So many other declarative panels or mega panels that can give you information on individuals. And what is the what is what is what does using a declarative panel do what it allows you to really look at from a very agnostic perspective, what the profile of your consumer really, really looks like, from a, and I'll give a perfect example. You brought up makeup makeup before so if we wanted to look at women in the US who are who are interested in beauty, or who have purchased beauty products in the past, and who are interested in fashion, and who are between 25 and 35, and are interested in sustainability if we wanted to add some behavioral, what, you know, how many are there? One, what's the market? What's the total addressable market? And then the obvious suspects, you know, what socio demographics? What are their values or perceptions? What do they like? What they not like? What are their interests? And then from a media perspective, you know, this is when we start to, to look at the consumer as a whole and think, Okay, well, how do they interact with media today? How do they consume media today? And is it different per segment when we look at it? And are there any touchpoints or channels that they have a higher affinity with, and then you start to think about, okay, the persona that we've built that could be called, you know, Julie, okay, so she's interested in all of these things, here's your profile, but she spends most of her time on social, but she has a stronger affinity without a home, according to the data. And this is when you start to build something that's broader than I want to target these women. And I'm going to do everything on social. Because what that gives you as as data as a starting point, and I'll, I'll get back to that as a starting point is, okay. So if I know that the these women that I want to reach are in Florida, and California and Texas, usual suspects and Illinois, and maybe there's something going on in an Iowa, that's an outlier, because I'm seeing over indexing there. But I'm also seeing that the behavior in terms of media consumption is different, then you know, that, that really brings us as marketers to look at that consumer from a more holistic way and think, Okay, well, they're, they're consuming differently. So I should be approaching that differently. And I can't just put all my eggs in one basket. And maybe when I'm putting my half a million dollars in social, the data is actually telling me that I'm over investing in social and that I should be putting something out of home, because they're both consuming just as much. And they both have high affinity. So I'm going through it quickly. But the idea is really to use the data. As a, as an I did say, as the first point. The data is one thing. Something a question that often comes up is, you know, well, how much do you rely on that data to break the silos and come up with a more holistic plan? Well, there's the data. And then, you know, you know, as well as I know, kind of, there's the media reality, which is like, budget, and what do you have? What do you want to do? And then there's the brand reality, like, I don't want to do TV, or, you know, we're not an out of home brand. We don't have so. So I think, you know, I said data was my first was my first answer. You know, how do you do that? Well, you can start with data and start with information that we have, but we have to consider the rest. And that's the part when we go back to business translators, like how do you make sense of everything? And and, and then execute on it and look at how much should we be investing by silo? Because we know that there's some overlap, but we know there's no overlap or in California, it should be in Florida, it should be bad.

Shark 14:39
So what's the advice you would give them to the brand marketer as to how do they go start breaking down those silos as well? Because a lot of them are going to hand off their advertising dollars to an agency.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 14:49
Right. And, and I, I, I go back to the data, Kenneth because I really think that whether you're an agency or a brand or you know any Even a social media partner or even PR, we need to start with data. And whether if it's whether it's declarative data or any type of, you know, panel data or data from, from GA or anything that we have, we need to start with the data really understand how people are interacting with the brand today, how people are engaging with content, how people are consuming media, what's the journey? You know, that's what we're talking about is what is the journey? And I think whether you're on the agency side of the marketing side, using data to better understand consumer behavior, and what we call cognitive marketing, and how people think, and what are their emotional and rational triggers, and what would make them interact with a brand is is fundamental, because that's what we'll use. Again, if I have a marketing director hat on or, or an agency or content strategy. It's using the data to make better decisions and making sure that that that data is actionable. So that's the one. Yeah,

Shark 16:06
I love what you said about an introductory data point. You know, one of the data points that I've used for content before was leaning into How did my advertising perform? And how are people reacting? And it gives you an additional place to think of bringing in advertising and marketing content marketing together? How are they reacting to ads? Sometimes that can be as powerful a trigger, because that's getting put in front of people? Yeah, not everybody wants to click on an ad. But if I know that somebody is reacting to an ad, that's red as opposed to blue, then I know that I need to write more content about red as well. And that's another data point to start breaking down some of the silos.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 16:48
Absolutely. And, you know, if we just just I'd love to touch on creative because you're talking about in content content strategy, because oftentimes, you know, when you know, when we're putting our media hat on, and we're looking at, okay, how does the data help me make better decisions in terms of breaking silos for media, that's one thing, but that same data could actually be used to develop better content strategy, or better partnerships or better influencer marketing, you know, that it could help us with a whole host of things that may not fall within the media box, right. And that's when you break different silos too, because you're all the departments within a brand or an organization are using the same data, understanding the same audiences, building the audience models in a similar way and agreeing on that. And then and building their strategies together, you know, so so that that's a, that's a really good way to start breaking silos, when you all have a common understanding, a single source of truth of your, your audience, and how they behave. Yeah,

Shark 17:53
let's talk about media silos a little bit, talk about how you see the setup with media silos today, because they strongly exist with some walled gardens that I believe are growing and getting taller.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 18:05
Right. So on the on the, just on the media type itself, listen, so we know that that's a challenge. And we know they're they're growing and getting taller, that's a great way to put it. And even then we need to be smart, I think about how we are tracking and reporting within those silos. And then using sometimes it's a technology or it could be an attribution or a platform or something to consolidate the the performance one, bring everything to a common currency. And then there is a, you know, I don't want to call it a guessing game, you know, you can't put a finger on a percentage of overlap. You know, there's anyone who says you and I've got the formula to be able to do that as lying. But you can use the data, as we saw before, to understand what the overlaps are in terms of affinities across different touch points, and then use that and apply it when you're looking at performance within those silos and try to get a better mathematical sense of how things were things are going. And then the other thing that that absolutely should be considered. And again, I don't think a lot of brands are doing this unless they have a very strong data analytics team or a partner to help them with that is, is not relying on the silos and media but really looking at what we call econometric modeling, and looking at well, how is bringing in the business data and layering that on top of the media performance, that it doesn't really matter where it's coming from, it could be coming from, you know, a a telco, telco, it could be coming from a TV or or the Giants and consolidating that but then looking well when I invest here, what happens to my business performance and when I invest here in social and on TV, what happens to my business metrics. So the the whole concept of looking at declarative modeling upfront To understand media media, consumer behavior, and media affinities and opportunities, and then looking at, at the, you know, at the end of the workflow, and trying to find correlations between business performance and media performance, have nothing to do with the firewalls or the cookies or device IDs that everyone's talking about now is like, what are we going to do when they go away? We're really looking at if I do this in media, and I find this much how, how does how does my business? How do my business metrics perform? So it really is more on probabilistic performance and statistical mathematics than anything. So it's a very different approach to what the hell we're talking about breaking silos in a, in a in a, in a perform from a performance perspective, and not just focusing on what is this silo doing for me?

Shark 20:53
Yeah, so they can use data. But what else can they do? What else can marketers do?

Sandra Abi-Rashed 20:57
Well, I think fundamentally, if we start with the data, and think and think about their, their marketing strategy differently, and reversing the model, that's something that can help break silos. And what I mean by that is, typically, brands, and some agencies will start with the big creative, like the big wild creative, like, let's, okay, we want we have this product, we want awareness, let's build the TV spot. Let's build a creative. And then they look at, okay, where which channels in which test touchpoints are we going to push this on? If you reverse the model, and look at data first, it really does help you come to the table with a, you know, a more holistic approach with less silos, because again, you're looking at the at the data and you're saying, okay, you know what, we don't need the spot. We need more out of home, we need more of this. And then using the data that has the values and perceptions of your audience and understanding, what are the key words that are going to make them react? And are those is that content strategy? Because it's part of the media different on the West Coast versus East Coast? Is it different by state? So it's really, instead of starting with the creative, and then thinking about touchpoints, it's using the data to determine the touch points and determine the content. So it's really like a reverse model effect. That's the second I guess, approach that could be applied by marketers.

Shark 22:18
Great point. So one of the things you're passionate about is mentoring the youth. Tell me a little bit about that, and the program you're running.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 22:25
Yeah. So in 2016, I launched a mentoring program called mentor Pro. And the the objective of that program was really to connect more senior experienced individuals with the younger generation, and in a very light and light lightwei, just connecting them for conversations. The program launched in Montreal, and we launched courts of mentors and a specific theme. So we launched a theme of mentors in fashion and communications. And in digital, and when I moved to Miami two years ago, we launched mentors in the luxury space. We're launching retail retail specialists in New York early next year. So 25 to 30 mentors in each cohort, we recruit mentees and they're off to have a cup of coffee cups of coffees together a little bit like what we're doing today. Just to chat.

Shark 23:23
Just a chat. That's fantastic. Yeah, Sandra, you're in beautiful Miami. I am. So I had North Carolina for diving trips with sharks and ISIS of all my guests on A Shark's Perspective. It's part of the reason why I got the nickname I have but what is your favorite kind of shark and why?

Sandra Abi-Rashed 23:39
Oh, my favorite shark? I love the leopard shark. I've always loved the leopard shark but I think it's because I just had this affinity with fashion. Water in the water. I'm like, You look great. You look hard.

Shark 23:52
Yeah. Yeah, it's a great point. I'm actually going to be diving with them in California in San Diego in a little over a month. So cool. All right. Well, Sandra says special time in the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions? Your OBS today? I'm a little nervous but yeah, shoot Alright. Number one, cafe qubino. Or a cafe Americano?

Sandra Abi-Rashed 24:15
Cafe Cuban No. All the way.

Shark 24:16
Yeah, I agree. Look, I believe everything great this country's had to offer is amazing. However, the Cubans despite a few dictatorships and oppressive regimes have simply have a speed with coffee. So I hats off to the cafe Cubana. Alright, number two donuts are popsicles.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 24:34
Popsicles? Absolutely.

Shark 24:37
I'm leaning into an article that was on shout out Miami, where he talked about salty donut for delectable doughnuts or Cielito for the one of a kind, frozen artists. That's where I was doing my my studies. All right, number three summers in Canada, where you're from, or winters in Miami.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 25:00
Definitely winters in Miami. I mean summers in in Canada and Montreal where I'm from are absolutely fantastic. We have all the festivals in the summer so summers need to be in Montreal, and winters need to be down here.

Shark 25:14
No, I'll take summers in Miami. All year round in Miami. It's

Sandra Abi-Rashed 25:18
just too hot.

Shark 25:20
Well, you can go diving though. We could dive all year round snorkel, y'all year round. I mean, it's, it's amazing. But I'd go to the other coast or go to the other side for cleaner water anyway. So number four, Canadian football or the National Football League. If you're an Argonauts or a Dolphins fan, I'll say

Sandra Abi-Rashed 25:41
You know, there's just more action here on this side of the border. So I'll say NFL, right. That was the right answer.

Shark 25:47
That was the right answer. No. And you got to have there. So to a tongue of aloha. So number five in the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 25:59
Biscuits. I tried cornbread, and I tried and tried and tried and I just can't. Biscuits.

Shark 26:06
No. Well, with Cuban food. Cornbread will work a little better. But biscuits are pretty hard to beat anywhere.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 26:13
Good with my Cabano coffee.

Shark 26:15
Good point. All right. So Sandra, where can people find out more about you? Find out more about the work you're doing at Digilent? Keep up with your thought leadership and more.

Sandra Abi-Rashed 26:24
Yeah, absolutely. So you can find me on LinkedIn Absolutely, or digilent.com. I also have a nonprofit mentoring program. So mentor.co

Shark 26:35
Sandra, thank you again for joining us on A Shark's Perspective.

Shark 26:44
So there was my conversation with Sandra Abi-Rashed, the VP of Client Services at digital, the GM at Happyfication, and the co founder of Mentoro. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from our conversation with her.

Shark 26:56
First, you've heard me talk a lot about breaking down silos, we still don't look holistically enough to measure, plan and execute both marketing and adspend. The customer journey the real one you can't see all of includes all the touch points. So try to expand your view and measurement should be done as a team sport. Leverage your data to build strategies together to use a single source of truth and expectation.

Shark 27:17
Second, love centers comments on business translators, not enough of them to translate the overarching view to make much of this actionable in a business sense, we look at it to siloed often not the way customers do.

Shark 27:30
Third, consider other data points to help you learn from and build future creative. Some of the other data sources dictate because they provide a lot of data, but they don't always have to be the only source of data that you're used to using.

Shark 27:41
Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective dot com.

Shark 27:45
Thank you again for the privilege of your time.

Shark 27:47
I'm so thankful to everyone who listens. And a big thank you to my sponsor and the team at Drips.

Shark 27:52
Please consider writing a review and letting me know your thoughts on the show.

Shark 27:55
Remember, we need less silos and more sharks. And please join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.
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